Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of black tennis players


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus in the article seems to be that defining the scope of inclusion is difficult, and that the sources presented to try and push this over WP:LISTN refer to African American players, not "black" players in general. There are also concerns about the inclusion of players of Indian and Southeast Asian descent in here. No prejudice against the contents of this list being restored to draft space and used as the basis for a list of African American tennis players, as suggested b multiple folks in this discussion. Lankiveil (speak to me) 11:15, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

List of black tennis players

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Article title/subject is way too problematic: "black" in the context of the worldwide sport tennis is entirely unclear. How is the Indian tennis player Leander Paes black? In the same way as Venus Williams is? and what about the French player Jo-Wilfried Tsonga? I note that the one source cited actually discusses African-American players, so how it is supposed to establish the topic as worldwide is not clear to me. Drmies (talk) 01:53, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete; basically per nom. We could have endless debates over who is black and who isn't. This list isn't encyclopaedic and it isn't what Wikipedia is. -  Yellow Dingo &#160; (talk)  02:19, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete. Where goes the line if you are black (or brown, white or yellow) or not? This list would bring ridiculous amounts of debates over that. Ilyushka88 &#124; Talk! Contribs 03:23, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The sources determine who is black. We go by sources not truth. If there are conflicting sources note that also. Otherwise it is arguing for the removal of any article that highlights black accomplishment (Black players in ice hockey, Black players in American professional football), is a step backwards.  --  Green  C  16:54, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Which sources? Sources of the players themselves declaring their "black" status?  Sources of third parties declaring these individuals to be "black"?  Or any source at all, including self-identifying sources, where these individuals are identified as "black"?  Can you clarify please?  It absolutely does not mean what you claim, by the way.  The two articles you note are actually attempts to discuss the relevance of black individuals in the sports in questions, whereas this is an indiscriminate list of "black" tennis players and nothing more.  Stop making strawman arguments, they don't serve you or your cause well.  The Rambling Man (talk) 22:09, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Reliable third-party sources determine who is considered a "black tennis player". There are plenty of third-party reliable scholarly sources that contain information about black tennis players. Verifiability not truth. -- Green  C  00:22, 25 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 03:45, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 03:45, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 03:45, 24 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment Of course, one could just delete all the South Asian players that have been added here -- as some kind of coatrack -- and end up with a more viable list within Category:Lists of black people. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 03:50, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep The topic passes WP:LISTN because there are substantial sources such as Charging the Net: A History of Blacks in Tennis from Althea Gibson and Arthur Ashe to the Williams Sisters and Blacks at the Net: Black Achievement in the History of Tennis. We have lots of other similar lists of black people such as List of black NHL players, List of black fashion models and List of black Nobel laureates.  I was quite impressed by the case of Althea Gibson when I was working on Williston School and really can't understand why anyone could suggest that we should suppress such. Andrew D. (talk) 07:30, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure "suppress" is the right word. I'm also not sure how I feel about this list but I do wonder what's to stop lists forming about white tennis players, asian tennis players, jewish tennis players, hispanic tennis players, buddist tennis players, gay tennis players, tennis players who have criminal records, ... and what to do when people have mixed attributes (as so many do these days). It does have the making of a big stew and a lot of arguing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:35, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * "Suppress" is full of bad faith, but this is par for the course. Unfortunately the basic question isn't even addressed: what does "black" mean? Andrew Davidson should notice that one of the books he mentions is already cited in the article, and it's a book not about "black" players in general but about African-American ones; the same applies to the other book. At the very least "black" is a misnomer here. Drmies (talk) 12:08, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid the editor in question likes to vaguely wave at book titles as sufficient evidence to keep anything in Wikipedia, without ever answering the real questions. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:19, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Well... Drmies (talk) 12:35, 24 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete once again, another unmanageable and subjective list, not worthy of an encyclopedia. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:19, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment The history of blacks in tennis is notable and needs an article. There is a two volume scholarly work on the subject Blacks at the Net: Black Achievement in the History of Tennis (the index has 100s to 1000s of names and countries). Incorporate the most notable players into the history article. For example Black players in ice hockey, Black players in American professional football. -- Green  C  14:33, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Redefine to List of African American tennis players. I don't think anyone would disagree that this is a notable group of people.  When you include other nations which don't have the same historical racial issues as the USA it becomes less clear.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 16:41, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * If the choice is keep or delete for the original article, I would say keep since the concept is certainly notable.  Readers are mostly capable of figuring out the different shades of meaning involved in saying someone is "black."  There are lots of other articles with the same issue.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 02:40, 25 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Simply removing the problematic 2nd section section allows us to easily Redefine to List of African-American tennis players (note the hyphen), which then gives us a main article for Category:African-American tennis players. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:54, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Isn't it complicated by European nationals who are black? Easier to define the scope in the lead section criteria, rather than the title. -- Green  C  16:59, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Jo-Wilfried Tsonga, who has a white and a black parent, would not be called "black" in Africa, not sure about in his country, France. Thoughtmonkey (talk) 17:34, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thoughtmonkey and me are simply proposing we repurpose the list for African Americans. But I suppose, wider options are possible. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 17:41, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The major sources do not limit the topic in this way. Blacks at the Net: Black Achievement in the History of Tennis covers "identity and black tennis in aboriginal Australia, North and South Africa, the Caribbean and the Americas".  Black Tennis Magazine covers "all news, activities, events and programs relating to minority tennis in all parts of the globe."  Charging the Net: A History of Blacks in Tennis includes Hall of Fame players like "Evonne Goolagong, and Yannick Noah".  We should follow their example as we aim for a global view. Andrew D. (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes I want to make clear that I'm certainly not opposed to that, either. As a Canadian, "Black" is not a problematic term for me. I don't see the need to delete, regardless. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:28, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * So we call it African-American and narrow it only to USA black players? That really sounds bizarre to me in this international sport. We use categories for that sort of thing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:07, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that these kind of lists are mostly better off as a series of categories. Then you can have all tennis players, men and women, all races, all nationalities, and any combination you like.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 19:36, 24 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment what's the objective definition of black for this list please? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:49, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Clue: if we don't have an objective definition, then this list is pure original research. Anyone can be black, anyone can self-identify as "black", anyone can be "called" black (with or without justification).  The fact that other lists have similarly poorly defined inclusion criteria shouldn't ever be used to justify keeping yet another one.  For other "experienced" users to try that tactic is lame and they should know much better.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:23, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * We have a main article Black people which is linked to in the lead of a main list of lists, Lists of black people, and of course Category:Lists of black people. It's not like we're working from scratch, here. But of course the lead in Black people indicates what a shifting and nebulous concept it is: that's why I'd opted for Thoughtmonkey's solution. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 21:58, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll ask the question again, what's the objective definition of black for this list please? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:00, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * As you know, my preference is List of African-American tennis players. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:06, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The question was, as before, aimed at the general audience. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:11, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment what's the objective tennis criteria for this list? Any player who happens to be black? Players who have won a major championship? In the category, there are currently 50 African-American players listed. That's not worldwide, that's just the US. Do we include all of them? And what about players like Oscar Johnson, who was the first black American to win a USTA event? Do we include players from the old leagues such as the "Black Tennis Association", "American Tennis Association", "African American Tennis", or "Negro Tennis League"... or just modern Open Era players? So lot's to discuss other then the definition of Black. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:03, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I would think that anyone notable enough for a WP article for being a tennis player and is black by whatever definition of that is being used belongs on the list. I mostly suggest leave this kind of thing to categories, but people like lists too. Thoughtmonkey (talk) 05:36, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Right, WP:LISTN has some good background on the questions of notability, inclusion. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:15, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I have added Oscar Johnson as he's in the Hall of Fame and so quite notable. Note that I created an article for him too as there wasn't one, which is quite telling.  Per WP:LISTPURP and WP:CLN, this is one of the advantages of lists over categories - they are better for under-developed topic areas because they support red-links and so facilitate the creation of new material to fill gaps. Andrew D. (talk) 15:51, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks Andrew. That is an advantage of lists. Mr. Johnson's previous absence from WP might be partly due to the fact that tennis fans don't tend to spend a lot of time on their computers writing WP articles. Thoughtmonkey (talk) 16:00, 25 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep Black is clearly understood to be the black race, and we have articles that use it, such as List of black Nobel laureates and List of black astronauts, among others. The first black athletes in a nation do get coverage for their race.  There are publications that cover notable black people in various fields.  You don't need to add the word "notable" to the name of the article, its understood that everyone on the list would be notable and list the reason why.  We have a List of first black Major League Baseball players by team and List of first black players for European national football teams.  Perhaps something like that.  Do they still get coverage for being black these days, like those on the List of black Academy Award winners and nominees, List of black Golden Globe Award winners and nominees, etc?  I know those two things get coverage in black media.    D r e a m Focus  00:03, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - another concern is what this spawns by opening the door. I see another was just created: List of Muslim tennis players. Is this also ok? I'm very worried about precedent with a list of tennis players that are Asian, Catholic, Buddhist, Hispanic, etc. (even white). It really could be endless. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:56, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I feel much the same. I prefer categories.  However what you describe is normal for WP and lots of people like it and remind us that "WP is not paper."Thoughtmonkey (talk) 15:29, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * The list of Muslim tennis players was created on 13 July 2016‎. It has no references.  Is this something given coverage in reliable sources?  Totally different situation than here.  No shortage of space on Wikipedia, no reason to delete something that has references in reliable sources.  List articles allow for far more information than a simple category.  For things like this, I believe looking at the category is useless, since you just have a pile of names.  This way you can easily look through what articles exists, and see information for them, to determine which you'd want to click on and read.   D r e a m Focus  15:48, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * This was created 22 July 2016.... both by the same new editor. He has created so many articles that needed to be either deleted or fixed, it's hard to keep up with him, to be honest (though he is thankfully improving). Fyunck(click) (talk) 17:09, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   14:12, 1 August 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — UY Scuti Talk  17:58, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete after some consideration. The essential difficulty here is the inclusion criteria. While it might theoretically be possible to define this list as "tennis players who self-identify as black or with recent African ancestry," there do not seem to be sources to support this; thus the list is a hodgepodge of African-American tennis players, African-French tennis players, African tennis players, and a handful of other unsourced entries which seem to have been dropped in to make the list appear global in nature. Entries such as Mahesh Bhupathi and Nick Kyrgios are particularly problematic: we cannot make unsourced assertions about peoples' ancestry. The folks citing LISTN are off the mark, as the sources do not explore the topic in a global sense, only a regional one. An article that was List of African-American tennis players would be quite okay. Vanamonde (talk) 05:36, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * NOTICE - the creator of the article was found to be a banned sockpuppet trying to avoid detection. So it should never have been created to begin with. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:07, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Per Drmies and inclusion criteria is not clear.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 05:48, 19 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.