Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of bus routes in Huizhou


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. It has been pointed out that the content is unsourced, failing WP:V. This has not been addressed, and no sources have been provided. Because WP:V is a core policy and cannot be disregarded, deletion is mandatory, no matter the lack of consensus about whether this is a WP:NOTGUIDE or notability issue.  Sandstein  09:27, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

List of bus routes in Huizhou

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We're not a travel guide. Completely unsourced comprehensive list of bus routes including bus models used. WP:NOTTRAVEL WP:NOR and WP:FANCRUFT. Ajf773 (talk) 04:57, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. Ajf773 (talk) 04:57, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Ajf773 (talk) 04:57, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. Ajf773 (talk) 04:57, 26 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete per wp:notguide. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia  ᐐT₳LKᐬ  13:04, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep -- WP:NOTGUIDE so totally does not apply here. That's about picking the "best" things or the "worst" things.  A pure list of bus routes is clearly notable per WP:NTS.  If nom thinks it's not, it's essential to face up to the fact that not only is there this guideline, but there are bunches of these articles which exist in accordance with this guideline, see Category:Lists_of_bus_routes, so that deleting any given one is more of a policy question than a question for AfD.  I suggest nom withdraw this nomination and start an RfC on notability criteria for bus route lists.  And in case anyone's going to toss WP:OTHERSTUFF in my face, read it first.  It's applicable when there's no relevant notability guideline, which is NOT the case here. 192.160.216.52 (talk) 14:53, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * You have failed to demonstrate how this list is notable and how this doesn't satisfy WP:NOTGUIDE. WP:NTS has not even been proven notable for the relevant transit authority nor any of the operators. Ajf773 (talk) 17:48, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * How does NOTGUIDE have anything whatsoever to do with this list? As I said, that pplicy is about travel guides.  As it states in the policy, travel guides purport to list the best or the worst of examples in some category.  Thus a list of the best bus routes might be deprecated per NOTGUIDE, but a list of all of them is unrelated.  Why don't you and/or User:El cid, el campeador explain how you think NOTGUIDE is relevant at all and, if it is relevant, why it doesn't also apply to every single other article like this on WP? 192.160.216.52 (talk) 17:53, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Example Special service is only available on Friday afternoons and Sunday afternoons for VSZ students. Even deleting that content, it is still a list of every bus route - none of which are notable (thus there are no best bus routes), which does make it a guide. Ajf773 (talk) 17:58, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:NTS is an inactive guideline, so I am uncertain why you would quote it. WP is not a travel guide, it's also not a directory or a schedule. How is a list of bus stops encyclopedic? What information does that impart on people other than those who want to catch a train? Try WikiVoyage if you are so inclined. Also try not taking AfDs personally for apparently no reason- we are just giving our opinions, respectfully give your own. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia  ᐐT₳LKᐬ  18:01, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * That's not an example of why it's a guide. The fact that there are no "best bus routes" means it's not a guide. It's a list of bus routes. Really, if your argument has any force, then lists of bus routes would be a priori not notable. That can't be true, otherwise why even have a notability guideline list WP:NTS? Since a consequence of your hypothesis is provably false, your hypothesis must be false. I think you should withdraw this nomination. It's fine to say that a list of bus stops isn't notable, but you really have to make that argument for all such lists. It seems to me that you're trying to accompliswh a policy change via an AfD rather than a more appropriate process.  Also, I have no idea why you think I'm taking this discussion personally.  That's a peculiar statement to make.  I'm not.  Why in the world do you think I am taking this personally? 192.160.216.52 (talk) 18:07, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The nomination stands. Now you've had your say let someone else have theirs. Ajf773 (talk) 18:58, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Is there some limit on my commentary here? Are we running short on electrons?  You had your say when you nominated the article for deletion, now let someone else have theirs. 192.160.216.52 (talk) 21:03, 26 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete as list is entirely unsourced, failing WP:V policy. May be a suitable candidate for Wikivoyage.  Regards, Yamaguchi先生 (talk) 21:12, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep the fact you cite WP:NOTTRAVEL is my single biggest frustration on Wikipedia. NOTTRAVEL means WP is not written like a travel guide, meaning articles shouldn't tell you which restaurants are the "best" or how to get to which tourist attractions. NOTTRAVEL then gets applied in a flagrant and erroneous way to encyclopedic transportation articles, because, god forbid, transport is kind of like travel, is it not? Wikivoyage doesn't want this kind of information, but readers wanting information on the history of bus transport or bus routes in a city would. Furthermore, there's a coordinated effort to get these lists removed from Wikipedia only on WP:IDONTLIKEIT grounds, even though there's even a Category:List of Bus Routes. If this violates WP:NOTTRAVEL, so does List of Bus Routes in London, which has been kept twice. I know I'm slipping into a WP:OSE argument here, but the analogy in this case is actually an accurate one. Cite something like WP:GNG, the fact it's poorly sourced, or the fact there's some timetable info in there that shouldn't be there, but the entire nomination is just one giant WP:IDONTLIKEIT, and it's going to get through because there'll be a majority, as always happens. SportingFlyer  talk  02:43, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * NOTTRAVEL is not limited to the examples in the policy. It can mean anything written in a way that it pertains to be a guide specifically related to travel. Lists of routes with lists of bus stops, bus operators, vehicle model numbers, travel notes (all of which exists in this article) and other meaningless trivia, in my opinion, is a travel guide. The transit authority's official website should be the source for all of this. Also there is nothing in the article that affirms any sort of notability. It's a list of routes, nothing else, no historical content to be found. Ajf773 (talk) 02:52, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * "The policy isn't limited to what it says, it can mean anything." If this is the kind of argument you're using you've already conceded.  You haven't responded to the serious argument, now propounded by two experienced editors, that your argument must be wrong because it implies that e.g. the list of bus routes in London must be deleted. Since that's clearly never going to happen, you have not given any valid reasons for the deletion of this argument either. 192.160.216.52 (talk) 12:34, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * List of bus routes in London at least has some notable routes. This list has zero. And are you trying to imply you're an experienced editor? Ajf773 (talk) 17:17, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd say that I successfully implied that I'm an experienced editor. You? 192.160.216.52 (talk) 17:34, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Don't flatter yourself. Ajf773 (talk) 17:42, 27 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment -- Nom, please link to this previous deletion discussion for this article: Articles for deletion/List of bus routes in Lahore, where it appeared as part of an equally ill-justified bundle. 192.160.216.52 (talk) 13:53, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * And you just did. Note that several articles have already been deleted in individual AfD's since that one including this one which was created by the same user: Articles for deletion/List of bus routes in Shenzhen. Ajf773 (talk) 17:17, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Sadly, the fact that one AfD was successful doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on the validity of this AfD. What's your point? 192.160.216.52 (talk) 17:35, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes it's an entirely different article however same reasons for deletion. Ajf773 (talk) 17:42, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * You didn't give valid reasons for deletion in either case, and just got lucky over there.192.160.216.52 (talk) 18:07, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Interesting .... I got lucky .... yea ..... right. Ajf773 (talk) 18:39, 27 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment -- Everybody seems to agree that List of bus routes in London is notable and back at the failed AfD from which this misbegotten attempt at face-saving springs, namely Articles for deletion/List of bus routes in Lahore it was widely agreed that the notability of the City devolved upon the City's bus routes. But Huizhou metro area has three times the population of London's.  No one's going to try to delete the list of London's bus routes, but somehow it feels OK to go after this one because it's harder to find sourcing in Chinese.  Clear example of WP:BIAS.  The nom really ought to try to change the accepted notability standards rather than picking off individual lists of bus routes in non-Western cities just because it's feasible. 192.160.216.52 (talk) 13:57, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
 * There are still some 130 bus route articles per Category:Bus routes in London - there used to be a lot more than that too. There is a clear consensus to keep List of bus routes in London despite two previous attempts to delete it. There are none in the whole country of China: Category:Bus routes. Notability of bus routes is WP:NOTINHERITED. Ajf773 (talk) 17:32, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
 * There are none in China because of WP:BIAS. Obviously there's no inherent reason why bus routes in the small provincial city of London are more notable than in the bustling metropolis of Huizhou, which is three times its size.  If London bus routes are notable these are even more so.  Until you address the issue of bias I don't see why anyone should take this AfD as anything other than the occidentocentrism it so clearly is. 192.160.216.52 (talk) 18:39, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
 * There are none because they aren't notable. No reliable independent sources = not notable. There is no WP:BIAS, other articles stay because they have firmly established notability and cover encyclopedic content which is more than just a brief bus guide. Ajf773 (talk) 18:53, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
 * They seem not notable to you because you don't read Chinese. That's why it's WP:BIAS. 192.160.216.52 (talk) 18:58, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Heard of Google translate? Ajf773 (talk) 18:59, 28 March 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.