Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of celebrities with advanced degrees


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. I am not convinced either way. If people want to split or rename or whatever, feel free to please discuss that on the talk page.

If that doesn't work out, you're welcome to renominate it for deletion again if absolutely necessary. Thanks everyone for assuming good faith. Missvain (talk) 23:11, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

List of celebrities with advanced degrees

 * – ( View AfD View log )

There's no formal definition of 'celebrity' here (until I removed it a little while back, the list included Theodore Kaczynski), and I don't think it's really possible to make one that wouldn't either be ridiculously inclusive or ridiculously exclusive. "Advanced degree" is a bit vague as well.

We could make this "list of professional actors, athletes, and musicians who have doctorates, medical degrees, or law degrees", true, but that seems... awkward. DS (talk) 22:26, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep as creator. Satisfies WP:NLIST. There are lots of lists in the wild: "Celebrities with impressive college degrees" (MSN), "9 Brainy Celebrities Who Earned Advanced Degrees In College" (ET), "Higher education: 27 celebrities and their academic achievements" (Vogue Australia) (though I set a higher bar than Kourtney Kardashian's bachelors in Theatre Arts), "30 Celebrities With Surprising (And Impressive) University Degrees" (Elle Australia). I suppose I should have explicitly specified PhDs and the like. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:49, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Split into List of artists and entertainers with advanced degrees and List of athletes with advanced degrees. This should negate the celebrity issues and, at the same time, allow me to restore entries I've relegated to See also. There are lists for rock stars (Insider, Inc.), NFL players (Bleacher Report), etc. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:27, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Define 'celebrity', then. DS (talk) 23:49, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Oxford English Dictionary definition (indirectly, as I don't have access to the OED): "[a] well-known or famous person ... (now chiefly) spec. a person, esp. in entertainment or sport, who attracts interest from the general public and attention from the mass media." Entertainment or sport covers everyone on the current list except Prada (and Kaczynski). Clarityfiend (talk) 03:58, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Still too vague. Why is Arthur Conan Doyle on there? or Michael Crichton? What counts as "interest", what's "general public", what's "entertainment"? Geoffrey A. Landis has won multiple awards for his fiction writing and has a Ph.D in solid-state physics. Does Isaac Asimov (Ph.D. in biochemistry) count as a celebrity? Why or why not? What about Vernor Vinge (Ph.D. in computer science)? All three have certainly been celebrated. DS (talk) 04:13, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Catherine Asaro? Diana Gabaldon? N. K. Jemisin? Tade Thompson? Nnedi Okorafor? DS (talk) 04:24, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Questions about whether some entries qualify do not have much bearing on the deletion issue. There are rock-solid celebrities who are noted for their academic accomplishments, e.g. Mayim Bialik. P.S. It is customary to notify the article creator when you initiate an Afd. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:31, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
 * What if I disagree that Bialik is a celebrity? You haven't defined your terms. You're pointing to a dictionary entry that's full of vague terms that One Is Expected To Understand but doesn't actually say anything objective. What counts as "entertainment"? Tell me. What counts as "interest"? What counts as "the general public"? My argument is that this list is fatally flawed because there are no objective criteria for whether any given degree-holder should be included. How many people are required to be "general public"? How entertaining must "entertainment" be, and to how many people? Stephen Jay Gould was a voice actor on an episode of The Simpsons - playing a Simpsonized version of himself. Does that count as him being an entertainer? DS (talk) 05:08, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You (and I) don't get to decide who's a celebrity. Reliable sources do that: "During Thursday, Sept. 24's episode of Celebrity Game Face, executive producer and host Kevin Hart guided three teams of celebrity pairs—including Rob Riggle and Darren Leader, Mayim Bialik and Jonathan Cohen ..." Also, I'm surprised you consider an OED entry to be full of vague terms. You don't know what "entertainment" is? Seriously? Clarityfiend (talk) 08:45, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

You've listed people who perform on television,and athletes, and a fashion designer. None of that is entertaining. You had one author. DS (talk) 05:19, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Sure there are listicles of a selection of examples, but that does not equate to an encyclopedia article. For some reason Vogue thinks I should be surprised America Ferrara has a bachelor of international studies and a Kardashian has a bachelor's degree in theatre arts – I'm not, and this is not the scope of this article either, since only one of those links is about postgraduate degrees. "Celebrity" is far too vague for this to have good inclusion criteria. If MD Arthur Conan Doyle is a celebrity, how about all the Physicians in the United States Congress? If this is supposed to exclude "those who are primarily known for their degree-related accomplishments", then why have Rachel Maddow? A PhD in political science certainly prepared her for her current role! Sure, people get a degree and later change their career, or become famous at sports or acting or whatever else have you and then decide they want to go back to school, but that's something for their respective articles, not something for us to synthesize as being connected to each other. Reywas92Talk 06:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Other lists: Celebrities with PhDs (Quacquarelli Symonds), Ken Jeong & 9 Other Celebrities You Didn't Know Had Advanced Degrees (Screen Rant). Also, Maddow wasn't a politician, so what degree-related accomplishments (that she is best known for) are you referring to? Sure, going back to school isn't unusual, but getting postgraduate degrees is. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:05, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think most physicians are described as celebrities, with the possible exception(?) of Ben Carson. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:30, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No, but they're considered to have advanced degrees. Physicians who are notable for reasons other than being physicians. Regardless of EOnline calling Bialik a celebrity, that doesn't mean she is - it only means she's been referred to as, and calling this article "List of people who have been referred to as celebrities and who also have advanced degrees" would be unwieldy. Maddow is known for being a political analyst on television. You still haven't answered my questions about what counts as entertainment. Please answer them. What counts as "entertainment"? What counts as "interest"? What counts as "the general public"? How many people are required to be "general public"? How entertaining must "entertainment" be, and to how many people? You appear to believe that these questions have simple and obvious answers, so please provide them. DS (talk) 13:32, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Your disregard for sources is very puzzling. What would satisfy you? A Supreme Court decision? A burning bush? Also, non-celebrities with advanced degrees are totally irrelevant. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:02, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You have not defined "celebrity" (and thus "non-celebrity"). Therefore it is impossible to tell what is relevant. DS (talk) 02:38, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The OED has, and I've explained how celebrityness can be confirmed. Would you like that engraved on a stone tablet, delivered by cherubim? Clarityfiend (talk) 20:57, 18 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep - meets WP:NLIST and satisfies points 1 and 2 of WP:LISTPURP schetm (talk) 02:49, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Che Guevara, per Reason, is a celebrity, and he had a medical degree. I can find descriptions of Haing Ngor as having "celebrity status" but not of him as being a celebrity. DS (talk) 02:25, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I would also note that the phrase "primarily known for their degree-related accomplishments" is also vague. Isaac Asimov, was known for his fiction and for his general non-fiction, not for his biochemistry. Buzz Aldrin, who is considered enough of a celebrity that he appeared on Dancing with the Stars, has a doctorate in astronautics but that's not what he's known for. The mention of David Duchovny, who didn't actually finish his doctorate, opens the way to include Doctor Seuss, who didn't actually finish his doctorate in English literature: he was famous for achievements not pertaining to his degree, because he didn't have a degree. DS (talk) 03:53, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Your insistence that Maddow doesn't qualify because (I presume) she comments on politics is at odds with your choice of Aldrin. Duchovny is not on the list, but in the See also section, which is totally appropriate. If you want to add Dr. Seuss there, that's fine too. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:06, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Consistency. You still haven't provided a functional definition of 'celebrity'. Is it the same as 'fame'? Do you have to be able to cite sources in which the person in question is referred to as a celebrity? The dictionary you quoted earlier said "mass media" - what counts as "mass media"? What about if the person is in a Hall of Fame? Which ones? Do elected officials count? Do Olympic medalists? Fatally flawed. DS (talk) 02:11, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Harper's Bazaar has categorized articles about Jill Biden as "celebrity news", as has USA Today. DS (talk) 02:34, 18 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete Vaguely defined list. As the nom keeps pointing out, none of the Keep !votes address the inclusion criteria. All the refs noted in the first Keep !vote are "top 10" clickbait sources often shunned at fictional element AfD's, so I'm not confident that Clarityfiend has proved LISTN. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 21:27, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm leaning delete. The issue here is the inclusion criteria, arguments about WP:Notability are missing the point. If we are to keep this, it first needs to be demonstrated that we can have WP:LISTCRITERIA that are unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources to allow us to make a proper list article. TompaDompa (talk) 23:45, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment - I voted keep earlier, but I came about this AfD not by trawling through the log, but by actually searching out this article as a reader and seeing the AfD banner. I again point to WP:LISTPURP which reads "If users have some general idea of what they are looking for but do not know the specific terminology, they could browse the lists of basic topics and more comprehensive lists of topics, which in turn lead to most if not all of Wikipedia's lists, which in turn lead to related articles." This is a list that unambiguously helps the reader find what he is looking for - famous people with advanced degrees - and it is the average reader who will be harmed by its deletion. Our readers come first. I really don't see any strong reasons for deletion cited above. Arguments citing notability guidelines really don't speak to navigational lists (apart from all entries having bluelinks), and the debate on inclusion criteria should have gone to the talk page first as it's a WP:SURMOUNTABLE problem.
 * TL;DR - This as a navigational list that should be kept per WP:LISTPURP, and citing inclusion criteria is not sufficient for deletion in this case. schetm (talk) 04:38, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: As a possible closing admin, I'm leaning delete due to the "what is a celebrity" situation. But, willing to hear more thoughts or ideas (and WP:Alternatives to deletion if any).
 * Delete What constitutes a "celebrity" is too hard to define to make this list definable.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:18, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 14:36, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment - The nom, DragonflySixtyseven, nails the list criteria - List of actors, athletes, and musicians with advanced degrees. I agree - that makes a terrible title, but it doesn't need to be. The title doth not the inclusion criterion make. It should, however, be in the lede, and I have placed it there. I think celebrity is fine in the title, but a potential title could be List of entertainers with advanced degrees. That is, perhaps, narrower than "celebrity" schetm (talk) 15:18, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * A potential inclusion criteria: This list includes actors, athletes, artists, and musicians with doctorates (MDs, EdDs, and PhDs) outside their field of fame. This could, of course, be expanded to a list of people with advanced degrees outside their field of fame, which then could include Guevara and Kaczynski. The title would need to be workshopped a bit more if it's expanded in that way. schetm (talk) 15:23, 21 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom; while 'advanced degree' may be just about possible to define (even though it hasn't been), 'celebrity' is hopelessly vague, not to mention inherently subjective: for example, I've not heard of any of the football players on the list — does that mean they're not celebrities, or that they are, but only to those who follow American football (a small minority of the World's population, surely)? I kind of understand what this article is trying to do, but I think that is more suited for chumbox clickbait (along the lines of "see what these famous actors look like today!") than an encyclopaedia article. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:53, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I've added a column for sources for "celebrityness". Clarityfiend (talk) 09:23, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * And demoted entries to See also for whom I cannot find celebrity attributions. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:22, 25 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Summation. I've provided about half a dozen lists of celebrities connected to higher academic achievement/degrees, all unambiguously specified as such in the list/article titles, so brainy celebrities are discussed as a group, satisfying NLIST. Celebrityness (celebrityhood?) is determined by the mass media, and the current examples in the list are all sourced by them (with the odd exception of Robert Vaughan). Clarityfiend (talk) 23:03, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * And where do you list Che Guevara, for whom I have found reliable sources that call him a celebrity? Jill Biden? Isaac Asimov? How do you determine when someone's degree is "unrelated" to their "field of fame"? The only real alternative to deletion is to fragment this into multiple sub-articles - 'actors who have', 'musicians who have', 'athletes who have'. DS (talk) 18:10, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * First, produce these reliable sources for Che. Where would I put him if he qualified? After Doyle and before Jeong, duh. Also, "outside their field of fame" is not mine. Somebody else added it. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:58, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Eureka! I believe you've hit upon the solution. Splitting the list into (1) artists and entertainers and (2) athletes would make the whole celebrity problem go away. (Celebrity states most are in those two categories.) I have changed my lvote accordingly. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:27, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Because "mass media" isn't defined, this is a perfectly valid source for Che Guevara being considered "the celebrity that celebrities adore". DS (talk) 22:39, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * FYI nobody was pinged because those templates have to be saved at the same time you add a signature. This would be a slight improvement if several others vote to keep, but I still think it's trivia that belongs on their articles, not a unifying feature to be listed together. "Artists and entertainers" is still rather vague. Reywas92Talk 01:25, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Delete Per Nom2601:246:CA01:31C0:9083:E369:A827:B9A3 (talk) 23:28, 30 May 2021 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete WP:INDISCRIMINATE list, there are no sources supporting that this topic as a list is notable. MrsSnoozyTurtle 08:27, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
 *  Keep  Move to draft for the short term, and split into List of artists and entertainers with advanced degrees and List of professional athletes with advanced degrees per Clarityfiend. The subsets are more readily shown to be notable than the broader list. Note that I would also limit the "athletes" list to "professional athletes", to avoid including academics who have a sporting hobby. BD2412  T 18:55, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: Changed from "move to draft and split" to "keep and split", as this has been worked on, and I think the split can be accomplished in mainspace at this point. BD2412  T 23:14, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
 * "Artists and entertainers" is still too vague. Actors? Musicians? Painters? Jugglers? DS (talk) 19:23, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The question is whether readers will understand the meaning of the term, which I think they will, given common parlance. We could say "celebrity artists and entertainers" to make clear that we mean the famous ones. BD2412  T 19:27, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * "Actors", "musicians". Does "professional athletes" exclude everyone who went to the Olympics? DS (talk) 04:13, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Why would it? Magic Johnson and LeBron James have been to the Olympics, but are clearly professional athletes. I suppose a list limited to professional athletes would exclude someone whose only athletic activity was going to the Olympics. We have an article on Professional sports which delineates the distinction. BD2412  T 05:10, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete: It's not clear to me that this list does meet WP:LISTPURP for navigation. With a list like List of mathematical symbols by subject, it's easy to imagine a reader who doesn't know how to find an article on the symbol they've stumbled upon any other way. This list seems to me to be a probable endpoint in itself, & to serve a function similar to the listicles it draws from, which is non-encyclopædic (WP:NOTDIRECTORY, WP:INDISCRIMINATE; I think this comes close to being 'non-encyclopedic cross-categorization', tho obviously we're dealing with a list rather than a category). Pathawi (talk) 03:51, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep; this passes WP:NLIST, and the objections brought up so far ("celebrity" is a vague term) don't seem to necessitate deletion. Perhaps it could be moved to a more appropriate title; perhaps we could have a list of musicians with advanced degrees, or movie stars, or YouTubers, or whatever. Perhaps we could attempt to reach consensus on a set of criteria for inclusion. Who knows? It's a problem that has many possible solutions, and deleting the article is a pretty unimaginative one. It's a nice list to have around, even if it might seem frivolous or silly. Readers are who matter, and besides, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a project to be the most serious website on the Internet (we have example.com, navy.mil, and the login portal for your local bank to serve that purpose). jp×g 06:09, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. Good for keeping track. Could be split, renamed, something along those lines. Hyperbolick (talk) 07:26, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   20:35, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. North America1000 11:46, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. North America1000 11:47, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Popular culture-related deletion discussions. North America1000 11:47, 4 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.