Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Spartaz Humbug! 09:05, 30 May 2015 (UTC) Expanded to explain the rationale: The clear preponderance of opinion was that this was REDUNDANT and a POV fork. The keep arguments disagreed but didn't, imo, provide a strong enough case that should suggest that the majority opinion should not count. Spartaz Humbug! 16:59, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam

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WP:POVFORK. All content of this list can be found on List of attacks attributed to the LTTE.  obi2canibe talk contr 18:52, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Civilian Massacres of Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka spans over three decades and is a notable subject, which should be covered by a separate page in enwiki. WP:RELART applies here and it is a related article to the List of attacks attributed to the LTTE. A similar situation exists in the wiki pages that covers wolf attacks, List of wolf attacks and List of wolf attacks in North America. ( P. S. Additional similar examples and explanation are given in the bottom of this page.) -- LahiruG talk 03:28, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:RELART applies to related articles with significant amount of information in common with one another. That is not the case with List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam where all the information is contained within List of attacks attributed to the LTTE - this is WP:REDUNDANT and WP:POVFORK. The liberal use of "terrorist" (violation of WP:TERRORIST), linking to Sinhalese extremist sites (sinhaya.com and 3rdvoice.wordpress.com) which are the inspiration for this list, and relying almost entirely on Daily News/Sunday Observer, state-owned anti-LTTE newspapers, for sources all point to this list being a POVFORK.


 * List of wolf attacks and List of wolf attacks in North America are not similar to this case because List of wolf attacks in North America contains several entries that do not appear on List of wolf attacks. Every entry on List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam appears on List of attacks attributed to the LTTE.-- obi2canibe talk contr 20:06, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
 * All the sources used in this article are acceptable and reliable sources according to the project page WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation/Sources. The External links used in this article may be extremist sites in your POV but for a neutral person, it is clear that all the incidents mentioned in those pages are true and can be verified with RS as it is the case with the page we are discussing about. Further, read WP:SPINOFF and WP:SUMMARY to understand why this article is not REDUNDANT or POVFORK, unless you probably have a COI about the LTTE or about the Sri Lankan War. -- LahiruG talk 10:25, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:SPINOFF and WP:SUMMARY clearly state that once an article has been split the main/parent article should only contain a brief summary. That is not the case in this instance because every entry on List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam appears on List of attacks attributed to the LTTE.-- obi2canibe talk contr 10:10, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Keeping lists in Wikipedia is more liberal than the other general articles with application of POVFORK / REDUNDANT policies. I have explain at the bottom of this page how redundant multiple articles on different subjects are used to provide useful information with ease of navigation to the users. Usually a list contains a group of incidents or a group of names and removing a good chunk of a list that is kept in chronological order to keep up with WP:SUMMARY will reduce the value of a list vastly. Hence there is no necessity to remove the civilian massacre incidents in List of Attacks of LTTE page, to keep a list of civillian massacres attributed to LTTE. This list of civilian massacres of Tamil Tigers distinguishes it self being a different subset of the large group of List of Attacks attributed to the LTTE. Though you seems to be very keen on deleting articles which hurts the Tamil Tigers (I have noticed it in many occasions over the last few years), you should not forget that Wikipedia is not censored to cover-up crimes of certain set of terrorist group who has set very very bad examples to the other newer groups which have similar mindsets.
 * In my view this list passes requirements such as WP:GNG, WP:VERIFY, WP:SYNTH, WP:OR etc. to stay in Wikipedia and it will be highly useful for the people who search for a reliable article to read about civilian massacres of LTTE in the internet. -- LahiruG talk 05:59, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * What value, other than serving as propaganda, does having two articles with same information add?-- obi2canibe talk contr 11:35, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * This is not having articles on the same subject, list of civilian massacres and list of attacks of LTTE are different but related topics. The list of civilian massacres does not include incidents where civilians died when the target was a political leader or Military personnel. For an example when LTTE assassinated presidential candidate Gamini Dissanayake by a female suicide bomber when he was in a political rally in 1994, around 50 other people died. But that incident is not included the list of civilian massacres, because the intention of the LTTE was not to massacre civilians. In my view it is not me who is having a propaganda issue here. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. -- LahiruG talk 10:52, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * They are not different, they are the same. List of attacks attributed to the LTTE contains every entry which appears on List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. Additional, the former's lede states that it includes massacres.-- obi2canibe talk contr 10:57, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If they are not different, then what is the difference you identify between List of massacres in Sri Lanka and List of civilian massacres attributed to Sri Lankan government forces ? Since all the incidents that appear in the second list were happened in Sri Lanka, all of those entries are eligible to appear in the first article. I'm afraid, the argument to delete this page on POVFORK/Redundancy is incorrect. -- LahiruG talk 08:56, 27 May 2015 (UTC)


 * delete redundant. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:23, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep as per WP:RELART. List of attacks attributed to the LTTE includes attacks on security personals, political assassinations, executions of POWs etc. List of civilian massacres is a distinct, at the same time an important topic for a militant group who waged a violent campaign to create a monoethnic independent state. It provides valuable, topic related information without having to go though a very long list in List of attacks attributed to the LTTE . As far as i can see the content is sourced. (didn't check them individually though) In my opinion this is not a POV fork. Thanks. Nishadhi (talk) 12:08, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If List of attacks attributed to the LTTE is too long, which it is by the standards of WP:SPLIT, then it should be split. Once an article is split you don't keep all the information in the original article - that is WP:REDUNDANT and, in this case, WP:POVFORK.-- obi2canibe talk contr 20:06, 20 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Weak Delete redundant. Though there is a justification why it can't be there when List of civilian massacres attributed to Sri Lankan government forces is there; there is no enough justification why it should be there when List of attacks attributed to the LTTE is there.Lapmaster (talk) 07:35, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The difference with List of civilian massacres attributed to Sri Lankan government forces is that there is no other article which contains all information contained in it i.e there is no List of attacks attributed to the Sri Lankan government forces.-- obi2canibe talk contr 20:06, 20 May 2015 (UTC)


 *  Keep per WP:LISTN and WP:LISTPURP. Qualifies for a Stand-alone list with providing valuable information on a subject that has been discussed as a group. Maduwanwela (talk) 15:26, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete: Just plain redundant, and honestly, the only reason I can think of for splitting this one off is to provide more lurid titles for propaganda purposes. I'm not impressed by WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments.  Nha Trang  Allons! 16:34, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sri Lanka-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:33, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:33, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:33, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:33, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:33, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:33, 20 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete redundant. --Kanags (talk) 09:37, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete redundant. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 12:59, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * @All the users who voted to delete the page on Redundancy : Redundancy is not a critical reason to delete a list in Wikipedia. While Civilian massacres of LTTE is a notable subject, it is also a subset of List of Attacks of LTTE, which is a larger topic which includes massacres of POW, political assassinations, attacks to the military personnel and suicide bombings etc. Multiple redundant lists are seen as useful aids for navigation and they also provide help with sorting in ways that aids users. There are many cases in Wikipedia, where redundant lists are providing valuable information to the users in different ways. I have given below some examples.


 * (i) List of French NBA players and List of Croatian NBA players are subsets of larger List of foreign NBA players. But all three lists are useful to the users who navigate Wikipedia to find different information on foreign NBA players.
 * (ii) List of living centenarians and List of oldest living people are subgroups of Oldest people and List of centenarians. Although there is redundancy, all those lists provide useful information. Additionally there are other related articles such as List of the verified oldest men and List of the verified oldest women which are subsets of List of the verified oldest people.
 * (iii) For the readers who need information on German poetry there is a List of German poets. Similarly there are List of English poets and List of French poets. All these pages are subgroups of the page List of poets.


 * Hence, it can be clearly understand that why provision of lists does not depends on redundancy in Wikepedia, while there are other critical policies that decides which lists gets to stay. This list easily passes WP:LIST being a notable, encyclopedic, verifiable, unoriginal and different list. Thank you.-- LahiruG talk 04:49, 24 May 2015 (UTC)


 * (i) List of French NBA players and List of Croatian NBA players each contain entries that do not appear on List of foreign NBA players and are therefore not redundant.


 * (ii) Oldest people and Lists of centenarians show how articles should be split. They contain brief summaries and provide links to child articles which contain more detail. List of living centenarians is the child article of Lists of centenarians which contains no entries, just links to its child articles. Similarly, List of oldest living people is the child article of Oldest people which only contains brief summaries - it does not contain every entry on the former list. Therefore they are not redundant.


 * (iii) List of English-language poets, List of French-language poets and List of German-language poets each contain numerous entries that do not appear on List of poets and are therefore not redundant.-- obi2canibe talk contr 11:30, 24 May 2015 (UTC)


 * OK, I 'll further explain it to you, when a French basketball player plays in the National Basketball Association, he becomes a French NBA player and his name is eligible to appear in the List of French NBA players. Since he is from a foreign country his name is also eligible to appear in the List of foreign NBA players. For an example if Tony Parker's name is missing in either of the lists, it is a missing entry and it should be added to the relevant place. Similarly if a centenarian named X is still alive, he is eligible to appear in the both lists, List of living centenarians and Lists of centenarians. Since the list of centenarians is divided according to the occupation, X should appear in the relevant list of occupation. Existence of articles such as List of French NBA players or List of living centenarians is not content forking, because those pages are providing information and navigational ease on a subject that is notable and useful. It is the same with List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam too. -- LahiruG talk 10:28, 25 May 2015 (UTC)


 * You're deliberately evading the point. Although an entry may be eligible to appear on both parent and child articles, when an article is split, like Lists of centenarians, most entries, if not all entries, do not appear on the parent article. That is not the case in this instance because every entry on the child article (List of civilian massacres attributed to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam) appears on the parent article (List of attacks attributed to the LTTE). That is redundancy and POVFORK.


 * Did you bother to even look at Lists of centenarians before you commented? It doesn't have a single entry, just links to its child articles.-- obi2canibe talk contr 10:51, 25 May 2015 (UTC)


 * It is not me who is deliberately evading the point. I have given enough examples already to understand the principle. No point in discussing the same thing over and over again -- LahiruG talk 10:55, 25 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete: per obi2canibe and WP:REDUNDANT and WP:POVFORK .The article is already covered in  List of attacks attributed to the LTTE.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 16:24, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry this page is a different, but a related article to the List of attacks attributed to the LTTE. WP:RELART applies here and it is only covering civilian massacres where LTTE targeted the innocent civilians. For an example this list does not include the 1998 Temple of the Tooth attack where some civilians died, because LTTE's target and intention was different. And there is also an existing article in English Wikipedia named List of civilian massacres attributed to Sri Lankan government forces. Wikipedia rules and policies should be universal and consistent to all the human beings. They should not be bended and amended to please the users who have higher edit counts. Thank you. -- LahiruG talk 04:41, 26 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep The list is obviously a related one but there is a lack of distinction throughout all these related articles. The List of attacks attributed to the LTTE article is a full chronological list of attacks (which should be spun off as it is too long), while this one lists a certain type of attack. As per suggested above, I'd also defend the creation of a separate list for Assassination attacks, suicide bombings etc. as these are all a notable type of attacks carried out over three decades. List of attacks attributed to the LTTE, as a chronological account would of course have to mention every event, and would inevitably have duplication, however that does not make this list redundant. This issue can be solved with some editing. --Blackknight12 (talk) 15:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete, as redundant. If we really need to categorise different sorts of atrocities, that can be done at List of attacks attributed to the LTTE rather than playing silly nationalism games with sensationalist article titles.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 03:30, 30 May 2015 (UTC).
 * If this is a sensationalist article title, then what about these titles, List of massacres attributed to Sri Lankan government forces, 1958 anti-Tamil pogrom etc. ? Don't forget that Neutral point of view is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and it is one of Wikipedia's three core content policies. What is the rationale you support to delete this article on redundancy, when there is a List of civilian massacres attributed to Sri Lankan government forces, which has entries that can be covered by List of massacres in Sri Lanka ? In addition to that, the same user who has nominated to delete this article on redundancy/povfork created the article List of the oldest schools in Sri Lanka, when there is already a List of schools in Sri Lanka. Similarly there is difference between civilian massacres with political assassinations, military attacks etc. Wikipedia should not treat two sets of massacres attributed to two sides of a conflict in two different ways. Otherwise Wikipedia will lose it's reputation as a neutral source of information, if the personal POVs of privileged users take precedence over fundamental principles of Wikipedia, specially when it comes to making important decisions such as AFDs. Thank you. -- LahiruG talk 04:38, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.