Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of conscious hip hop artists


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Singu larity  06:52, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

List of conscious hip hop artists

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

This list appears to be original research. What, exactly, does the "list of conscious hip hop artists" entail? What does the phrase "conscious hip hop artists" mean? I work in the music / radio industry and have never heard this prhase used. As such, I've nominated this article for deletion as original research. InDeBiz1 (talk) 04:53, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete I don't know if the list creator means artists who are alive, breathing, and able to think for themselves, or contribute to the community at large (as in socially conscious) in a positive way. Whatever it is, I'm ultimately confused.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 04:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete I'm not sure what state 2Pac is in (first on this list) but I'm sure it isn't conscious. Unencyclopedic and unclear Nick Connolly (talk) 05:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete semi-frequently used phrase in the hip hop world on the same level of vagueness as "next level". JuJube (talk) 09:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. We do have an article on this topic. It's actually a very commonly used term in hip-hop circles, and refers to artists whose lyrics are "socially conscious" in some sense (dealing with politics, racism or sexism, problems faced in urban communities, etc.). Conscious hip-hop is often thought of as the antithesis of gangsta rap. I think this list is inherently POV though and can never be otherwise. Whether an MC is "conscious" or not is a fairly subjective matter, and some MC's - 2Pac being perhaps the prime example - clearly fall into the "conscious" category at one point in their career but not so much later, so I don't know what you do about that. As someone who knows hip-hop fairly well I agree with most of the entries on the list, but it's still basically impossible for the list to be NPOV which means we should delete it. It might be possible to change the article title to something similar but less POV and thus keep a lot of the content, which is admittedly useful.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 10:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * You just have to cite a reliable source saying a certain artist does conscious hip hop. --Pixelface (talk) 10:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * But what if there were two other reliable sources that pointedly argued said artist was not a conscious rapper? I can easily imagine some hip-hop publication arguing, for example, that Jadakiss "has done some conscious hip-hop," however in general most would not consider him a conscious artist. As I said the term "conscious" is far too subjective, but the article title gives the impression that everyone on the list is indisputably a conscious artist which is not the case. I would not mind having a list along these lines but I think it needs to be called something else, though I don't have any big ideas offhand.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 10:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * And then there is the matter of what to do with the fact that the early gangsta rappers were not slow to self-identify as "reality rap", hence linking themselves to Chuck D's dictum that hip hop was "black CNN" and linking themselves to the same lineage of socio-political commentary tracing all the way back to Melle Mel. 86.44.28.245 (talk) 08:42, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep, sources exist for this topic. This looks to be a case of WP:IDONTKNOWIT by the nominator. --Pixelface (talk) 10:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment With all due respect, you'd be wrong with your assertion of WP:IDONTKNOWIT.  I have enough experience in the radio / music industry that IF this were a commonly used phrase and this article WASN'T original research, I would have heard the phrase.  But, as it is, this article is the very first time I have ever seen it or heard it.  I stand by my nomination.    --InDeBiz1 (talk) 21:18, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that this should be deleted, but honestly I'm guessing you are not all that familiar with hip-hop if you have never heard this term before. It is incredibly, incredibly common in hip-hop circles. Many folks will claim they only listen to "conscious" rap. Other terms have been used in the past (for example "message rap"), and other similar terms are used today ("backpack rap" is also a synonym). An article on conscious rap is very much warranted and is not OR, it's just that this list is problematic. If you don't believe me look again at the links Pixelface provided.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 22:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Considering that I program a hip-hop radio station......  --InDeBiz1 (talk) 22:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe you, but perhaps this term slipped under your radar somehow. Again, look at the sources provided by Pixelface, or just google "conscious hip-hop" which comes up with 83,000 hits including a bunch of stuff that's relevant right off the bat. A Google books search is also revealing (see this chapter from a book by Michael Eric Dyson, the title of which was partially taken from a Nas lyric: "Cause it's trendy to be the conscious MC / But next year, who knows what we'll see?"). Anyhow this really is a notable if admittedly vaguely defined term which is referenced all the time by all kinds of folks in the hip-hop world. I teach a urban history course at a college in the Bronx where we listen to a ton of hip-hop and my students (generally 8-10 years younger than myself) are quite familiar with the term, as are my friends who are hip-hop heads. I'm surprised you haven't heard of it, though possibly it's used more frequently in certain regions of the country. Anyhow, sort of a side point, but relevant if someone is questioning the legitimacy of the concept rather than the list (which seems to be the case for some of the delete voters).--Bigtimepeace | talk |  contribs 00:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep but per Pixelface's comment above, the article needs to be sourced and vetted, otherwise including someone on there without a source would be a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR (and yes, that means a lot of work for somebody). In addition, an introduction needs to be added otherwise not only might WP:IDONTKNOWIT come into play, but you might see someone trying to create a list of "unconscious" hip hop artists. 23skidoo (talk) 12:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Where's the notability here? Arbitrary, unreferenced list. Brando130 (talk) 18:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Even if we were told what a "conscious" hip-hop artist is, it's an indiscriminate list. A list of unconscious hip hop artists would be more interesting. Mandsford (talk) 21:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete, "conscious" meaning alive and awake, or what? KleenupKrew (talk) 22:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete, cannot ever be more than a conglomeration of POV determinations. Unless there's a "2Pac Conscious Hip-Hop Award" someday .... --Dhartung | Talk 00:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd say we've reached a consensus? 8 delete votes, 1 keep, and a weak keep?  --InDeBiz1 (talk) 00:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * This will almost certainly be deleted, but we need to let the AfD run its course I think - which is five days as a rule - and let it be closed by a non-involved admin. I don't think this is a WP:SNOW candidate if that's what you were suggesting.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 01:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep - I'm not even a big hip-hop fan (more of a heavy metal guy) and yet I have come across the term. Someone above has provided several reliable sources on the apparent existence of this genre. There are many other lists of artists from a particular genre that are similarly unreferenced but that's not cause for deletion. Take a look at the list of folk metal bands for an example of how a list like this can be improved with the proper format and sources. That list was completely unreferenced too just a few weeks ago and then I came along to work on it. There's no reason to think that this list of conscious hip-hop cannot similarly be improved. I suspect most of you have not heard of folk metal either. --Bardin (talk) 12:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Would that it were so. Your superlative work has shown that folk metal is a robust niche genre with definable boundaries. Conscious hip hop is a much more nebulous concept, referring as it does to to lyrical content which at some point someone has deemed to be dealing with social issues. This is a case for an article on the subject, with notable examples (actually Message rap would be a much better article IMO, someone click through for me with a merge and I'll write the rest up), but any list will be a repository of loosely associated acts, and might as well be "List of hip hop artists". Are we a directory? 86.44.28.245 (talk) 08:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.   -- Fabrictramp (talk) 00:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.   -- Fabrictramp (talk) 00:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Delete Per the talk page comment: Fork of deleted list at Conscious hip hop, has all the same problems. Uncited, potentially infinite, based on people's personal perceptions, unencyclopediac. The list was in question for a month and a half at Conscious hip hop without one single cite being added, and was deleted. This article is approaching two months in existence, still no cites. Previous discussion Articles for deletion/List of golden age hip hop artists which closed Delete also applies here. 86.44.28.245 (talk) 08:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Conscious hip hop is definitely a notable genre/term but this list is a mess! The Game? Obie Trice? Ja Rule? What is the criterion for inclusion on this list, recording one semi-thoughtful track? Additionally, the nominator needs to go back to school if he considers himself to be a musical scholar but has never heard the term before. — Hello, Control Hello, Tony  20:05, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.