Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of deaths and critical injuries caused by Palestinian stone-throwing


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. I have examined both AfDs about the Israeli perpetrators (I) and the Palestinian perpetrators (P) version of this content and am closing them together because the discussions are interrelated.

In both AfDs, opinions are roughly divided 8 to 8 between deleting (often expressly both) on the one hand, or keeping or merging the lists on the other. However, the merge opinions would generally also support the deletion of both articles. This leaves four "keep" opinions, all for the P list, whereas the about 12 other participants would prefer to delete (mostly both) or failing that merge the lists. This leaves us with the deletion of both as the most consensual result.

Examining the weight of the arguments made does not change this outcome. The four "keep" opinions are very short and generic, mostly boiling down to "It is sourced". However, having sources is a necessary but not sufficient requirement for article-level coverage, according to our policies and guidelines, and the "keep" opinions do not address the concerns raised by the "delete" side, such as coatracking and inappropriate newspaper-/current events-type coverage. These "keep" arguments carry, therefore, relatively little weight.

This result is a reaffirmation of the consensus expressed in this RfC, mentioned in one discussion, that our coverage of incidents of this type, regardless of which side is held responsible for them, should not include lists of individual incidents that are not themselves notable enough for an article.  Sandstein  19:36, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

List of deaths and critical injuries caused by Palestinian stone-throwing

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

An RFC found consensus against listing non-notable incidents. Wikipedia is not a news source or a memorial, and compiling daily news in list form is not an appropriate means of circumventing WP:EVENT, the notability guideline for events. The creator's overblown edit summary also suggests a pointy or synthy motive, which was another reason for the consensus not to have such a list. I recommend deleting both this and its sister article. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 06:38, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep Article is a well-defined, well-sourced list, in line with the many Lists of people by cause of death.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:54, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Most, though not all, of those are lists of bluelinks, and moreover lack your transparent POV motivation. This is a subject for Storify, not Wikipedia. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 14:02, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Rosecaleese has not checked her facts. Deaths in this article are, in fact, largely blue-linked. And this is in every way comparable to the many Lists of people by cause of death. E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:15, 25 September 2015 (UTC)


 * comment this AfD and Articles for deletion/List of deaths and injuries caused by Israeli forces firing at alleged Palestinian stone-throwers should be combined into ONE single AfD. --NSH001 (talk) 12:45, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with that, but don't remember how to do so. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 14:02, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Disagree because these articles are not parallel. This one is about a series of well defined crimes. The other is a WP:COATRACK mishmash of incidents involving riots, civil disturbances and intervention by the army.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:20, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No, that's not true, and honestly, I think you know that. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 14:02, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This is moot. People have opined [differently] in both already. &mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  \\ 14:05, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. &mdash;  Rhododendrites  talk  \\ 13:01, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. &mdash;  Rhododendrites  talk  \\ 13:01, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. &mdash;  Rhododendrites  talk  \\ 13:01, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:16, 25 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete As per the RFC and WP:NOTNEWS and WP:EVENT. Wikipedia should and does discuss such incidents in a broad sense, but a list like this is WP:SYNTHy and WP:CFORKy. Bondegezou (talk) 13:19, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep Well-sourced article on people by cause of death. Dimadick (talk) 13:30, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You say this as though that's an established kind of article! Wikipedia doesn't list average joes by cause of death because it's not encyclopedic. Where we have lists of people by cause of death, they are lists of bluelinks (notable people or incidents), not linkfarms to external news sites. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 14:02, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yet again, Rosecelese has failed to check the facts.Lists of people by cause of death is an established category of lists.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:52, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * See:Lists of people by cause of death.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:01, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Anyone scanning this article can see that the listed deaths are heavily blue-linked.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:59, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete - My first inclination would be to say Merge to Palestinian stone-throwing, but there's already been an RfC determining it to be inappropriate to include these. Creating a separate article seems to be [intentionally or not] circumventing that. &mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  \\ 14:08, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I can think of no better illustration of the blind nationalist hate that drives so many Wikipedia editors than keeping this article and deleting the other. That outcome would suit me down to the ground.Dan Murphy (talk) 14:26, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * See WP:FALSEBALANCE (and WP:AGF for good measure). If there were two articles about opposite sides of the same coin which use the exact same sources, you might be right. But that's not the case. The sources are not the same, the topic is not the converse, and the inclusion criteria are not the same. That's what matters. If you would like to make an appeal to nationalism for the sake of equating them, you're [sort of] welcome to do so, but base your arguments on the substance of what people are saying, not the premise. &mdash;  Rhododendrites <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk  \\ 14:39, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I have looked at the substance. And I don't play the fool. This is about nationalist, agenda-driven editing and dehumanization.Dan Murphy (talk) 15:01, 25 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment - There should be a discussion about all articles similar to those two ( and maybe more). WP:OSE for all such articles should be discussed together and one consensus make the rule for all. Settleman (talk) 14:49, 25 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Merge and severe trout slaps to all concerned. Saw this article and List of Palestinians killed and injured by Israelis in connection with stone throwing, also nominated for deletion, referenced on a user talk page I watchlist. Should be merged into one article with a concise, neutral title, or perhaps merged with yet another article. The presence of these two tit-for-tat articles is a great example of WP:BATTLEGROUND in action. It may help if all editors currently involved in this intra-wiki warfare be topic-banned, a remedy I usually don't favor, but let's leave that for another day. Making a similar comment at the other AfD. Coretheapple (talk) 18:08, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:FALSEBALANCE. Please note the stark difference between scope, definition, and sourcing of the two articles, in particular, the fact that this articles includes both Arab and Jewish deaths.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:26, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No, it's not false balance. You have a tarantella being danced here between two articles, each created with political intent. What I'm suggesting is that the political agenda be thrown out and that one neutral article be created showing casualties resulting from rock-throwing, be that either the people throwing the rocks or the ones who are targeted. The idea is not that one is better than the other, but that both were casualties. Or there can be an article on the general subject of rock-throwing, not in list format, which might be an even better alternative. Coretheapple (talk) 18:45, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Criminal rock throwing and Palestinian stone-throwing already exist. But as Rhododendrites notes above, the later article forbids the inclusion of examples of individuals killed or maimed by thrown rocks.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:04, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Then that argues for my suggestion for a single list article: List of casualties associated with Palestinian rock throwing. (That language is very rough, and I can see quite a battle over it.) That way both articles can be combined into one list. If that is not agreed to, then I would argue for keeping both list articles and making the best of it. Coretheapple (talk) 14:21, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Lists have to be tightly defined to work at all. associated with is unworkably vague.  Moreover, incidents in which people are killed or maimed by thrown rocks are very different form incidents of riot and civil violence in which police injure or kill participants or bystanders.  Far form achieving balance,  a list mixing two such different types of incidents would be WP:FALSEBALANCE.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:41, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You've raised that point previously, but I don't believe that that section of WP:NPOV is really applicable. Both are casualties as a result of rock throwing, and the article can be clearly delineated to show that one group of casualties were hit by rocks and the other by Israeli military action. The name of the article that I've proposed is just an off-the-top of head suggestion. Coretheapple (talk) 17:14, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Please WP:AGF. I have created a series of articles on what I regard as the extraordinary phenomenon of individuals killed rocks thrown at cars moving along roads. (see, for example, not only Death of Adele Biton, but also, Darmstadt American rock-throwing incident).  The fact that  a  cluster of such incidents has occurred in Israel (innocent Arab children have also died in cars targeted by rock throwers) led me to create a list.  Such lists are entirely commonplace on Wikipedia.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:04, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * When I said "you have a tarantella...." I wasn't referring to you personally, or to any specific named editors as I don't edit in this area. I just was struck by the tit-for-tat aspect of this and the other article. Everything that happens in that area receives coverage, so therefore the temptation is to write articles about everything that happens. That may be part of the problem. Coretheapple (talk) 14:37, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And to really overturn the obvious narrative one could write about Jewish Israeli stone throwing (edit: hah - there is such an article. Though it doesn't seem to get the same kind of, well, lavish attention that Gregory gives to his/her political agenda) and perhaps toss in 'List of Israeli police shielded from stone throwing Jewish settlers by Palestinians.' This is what encyclopedias are for, right?Dan Murphy (talk) 19:12, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Dan, with all due respect, you're doing this wrong. You're looking at this like a professional. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 19:22, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No, sounds more like more of the tit-for-tat mentality that infects this whole subject area. Coretheapple (talk) 11:57, 1 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Either merge the two lists or delete them both, with my personal preference being the latter. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 19:22, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I know. Shaking the habits of 25 years is hard(I am currently playing at gentleman farmer in California and completely out of the business. It probably won't last).Dan Murphy (talk) 19:30, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge with List of Palestinians killed and injured by Israelis in connection with stone throwing (or delete them both). (Also, I would also suggest merging Palestinian stone-throwing with Jewish Israeli stone throwing) Huldra (talk) 20:36, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The two lists are of different things. This is a list of people (Arabs and Jews) killed by rocks thrown at them by Palestinians (Arabs sometimes die when Palestinians mistake their car for a car carrying Jews).  The "other" list is not the opposite, not, that is, a list of people killed by Israelis throwing rocks.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:11, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment; After re-reading Roscelese´s RFC, which found consensus against listing non-notable incidents: I would not object to deleting both this, and List of Palestinians killed and injured by Israelis in connection with stone throwing. (And frankly: anyone who votes "keep" for this article, while voting delete, or not at all, on the other article (= List of Palestinians killed and injured by Israelis in connection with stone throwing) or vice versa, has, IMO,  made a very strong application for a topic ban from the I/P area.) Huldra (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep - I just dont see a problem with this list. It is well-sourced and seems like a good complement to any other lists.--BabbaQ (talk) 21:59, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete for same reason I !voted delete on the other one. These appear to be tit-for-tat political statements. I suppose Merge would be acceptable if it can be done WP:NPOV. VMS Mosaic (talk) 02:32, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep both or delete both or merge. Any other option would be an obvious and severe NPO violation. Zerotalk 04:53, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge and oppose linkage. As User:Rhododendrites correctly points out: " WP:FALSEBALANCE (and WP:AGF for good measure). If there were two articles about opposite sides of the same coin which use the exact same sources, you might be right. But that's not the case. The sources are not the same, the topic is not the converse, and the inclusion criteria are not the same. That's what matters."  This article should be judged on its own merits.  As should the article created subsequently on the quite different question of Palestinians killed by police during violent riots.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:11, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete both per nom. It's not our job to compile lists of every incident that barely made the news or didn't make the news at all. If there were specific incidents that were noteworthy based on Wikipedia's notability guidelines, we could have articles on those specific incidents. To just detail a list of every person killed or injured by a stone thrown by Palestinian protesters or rioters and every Palestinian protester or rioter killed or injured by an Israeli soldier or settler is undue. I don't know about the intentions of the users who created these lists, but regardless, these lists only serve to make a point in support of either side of the I/P conflict. --Al Ameer (talk) 20:25, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Al Ameer son, like Rosecalese, has failed to check his facts (or failed to read the list). This article, like Wikipedia's  many Lists of people by cause of death is heavily made up of blue-linked incidents.  Blue-linked because they have been deemed notable.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:55, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete BOTH per various aspects of WP:WWIN and WP:POVFORK. Wikipedia should not attempt to catalog every death in a conflict, particularly those that are otherwise not notable, and it certainly should not selectively catalog certain deaths based on political bias. I cannot help but see these articles as soapboxes or coatracks. - Location (talk) 23:38, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Note that Wikipedia has many Lists of people by cause of death.   Some (List of inventors killed by their own inventions) are of notable people, while others, (List of hazing deaths in the United States) are of otherwise obscure people who died in an unusual circumstance that is a matter of public concern because like the articles in | Deaths by rocks thrown at cars, and like the people on this list, the cause of death is both unusual and preventable.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:34, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * There are many lists but your list is the only one based on ethnicity. Why is that? What does that tell us? Does it tell us something about Palestinians as an ethnic group, something about Wikipedia or something about you? Remember ethnicity? It's that thing about which you said "I create articles irrespective of ethnicity", a statement that is unambiguously inconsistent with your actions in the ARBPIA topic area. Imagine if Wikipedia, a global encyclopedia, failed to prevent people from infecting it with their personal views about ethnic groups. What would that look like? How might one go about identifying instances of that kind of failure? What symptoms might one expect to see from that kind of infection? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Sean.hoyland  - talk 08:59, 1 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Where did you get such a notion? Quite aside from the fact that this list includes both Jews and Arab Muslims who were killed, Wikipedia has many, many lists by ethnicity. A sampling: List of murdered American children, List of Palestinian suicide attacks, List of Bosniak writers, List of Lebanese Armenians, and List of Cretans.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, please don't deliberately truncate a quote to mislead other editors. What I wrote was: "when hooligans pick up rocks and throw them at human beings - and the event generates national coverage - I create articles irrespective of ethnicity, faith or other personal status attributes of the criminal. See, just for example, Death of Chris Currie, Darmstadt American rock-throwing incident, Interstate 80 rock throwing, and Criminal rock throwing."E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:29, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note the term "Palestinian", like Danish or Japanese, denotes BOTH an ethnicity and a national entity. Thus, Lists of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, List of Palestinian suicide attacks is not different than List of Chinese astronauts or List of Palestinian women writers.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:59, 1 October 2015 (UTC)


 * The statement There are many lists but your list is the only one based on ethnicity refers to your comment Note that Wikipedia has many Lists of people by cause of death. I assumed this would be obvious. So, the question Why is that? in that context can be re-expressed as, Given the set of lists defined by Lists of people by cause of death, why is your list the only one there based on ethnicity? Would you like to try to answer that straightforward question in a straightforward way?


 * Of course, there are many other lists not related to cause of death that are based on ethnicity. But, you know, there are many that are absent because they have been deleted. I'm talking about the kind of lists that appear to be created to demonize and spread hate. You can imagine the kind of thing, List of Jewish <insert some kind of criminal behavior or attribute that is negative in the eyes of the editor> etc. The people who create these lists pick an ethnic group and focus on the criminal behavior of that ethnic group. Many lists like that have been deleted at AfDs over the years to prevent misuse of Wikipedia.


 * I have already addressed your second comment made at 11:29, 1 October 2015 in my statement here. Your statement is inconsistent with the evidence, evidence that demonstrates a focus of Palestinian throwing stones and Israelis as victims rather than a focus on sampling RS coverage of this type of cause of death using a sampling method that is independent of the "ethnicity, faith or other personal status attributes of the criminal". I'm aware that you have explained this focus here, with your statement, I have created a series of articles on what I regard as the extraordinary phenomenon of individuals killed rocks thrown at cars moving along roads...The fact that a cluster of such incidents has occurred in Israel (innocent Arab children have also died in cars targeted by rock throwers) led me to create a list. Such lists are entirely commonplace on Wikipedia....referring to initial article you created here on 2015-09-20. There are many problems with your statements. Firstly, none of the incidents in the article you created occurred in Israel. That is a troubling error for an editor active in the ARBPIA topic area to make. Secondly, the statement (innocent Arab children have also died in cars targeted by rock throwers) led me to create a list implies causation, that the death of "innocent Arab children" played a role in you creating the list. That is, of course, not the case, as can be seen from the inital article you created. The statement Such lists are entirely commonplace on Wikipedia, with list linking to Lists of people by cause of death, is misleading given that your list is the only one there based on ethnicity. Simply creating your list caused a rather extraordinary but understandable reaction from editors in ARBPIA. Articles like this start fires. Deleting articles like this puts fires out.


 * I'm aware of the multiple meanings of the word Palestinian. That changes nothing. This is about the misuse and contamination of Wikipedia by armchair belligerents in the Israel-Palestine conflict. It's about the willful disregard for mandatory neutrality by using indefensible methods to frame and build articles. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Sean.hoyland  - talk 10:30, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


 * This is a list. Of a specific and rather unusual type of violent attack that arouses broad public interest. Note that many Wikipedia articles on criminal activity are organized by ethnicity. List of Jewish American mobsters, Chaldean Mafia, Irish Mob, List of Sicilian mafiosi. However, Palestinian, as you acknowledge, is a term that is at once ethnic and political, and lists of crimes/criminals are often organized in national categories.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:05, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Just as a general point on arguing with your interlocutor. Try to respond to what they actually said, rather than what you wish they had said. Sean didnt say your was the only list on criminal activity that is organized by ethnicity. He said yours was the only one of the lists of people by cause of death that is based on ethnicity. Respond or dont, but if you do actually address the point, not the easier to disprove strawman. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 17:22, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * A list, is a list, is a list.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:10, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - Partisan civil war-related coatrack. Carrite (talk) 23:29, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete both This list is transparently part of a partisan conflict using Wikipedia to tell the world about the awfulness of the other side. A neutral encyclopedic article would cover why stones are thrown; alternatively, a neutral list of deaths in conflict would have worldwide coverage and would not focus on current events cherry-picked to present one side's view. Johnuniq (talk) 00:22, 3 October 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.