Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of diplomatic visits to the United States


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Numerically split. Several opinions on both sides need to be discounted as pure votes, etc. The rest are divided regarding the indiscriminateness of the list and the notability of the topic; this is a matter of editorial judgment.  Sandstein  08:58, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

List of diplomatic visits to the United States
AfDs for this article: 


 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

per WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE/WP:LISTN. A complete list will be excessive, and there's no good way to have a partial list.

Similar to Articles for deletion/List of heads of state and government visits to the Russian Federation, with the additional complication of listing (or not listing) visits to the UN in New York. power~enwiki ( π, ν ) 19:02, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following articles, which are of the same form for different countries:


 * “This information could be displayed more sensibly in the articles about the relevant Politicans themselves. Additionally Wikipedia is a not a list of indiscriminate information WP:NOTSTATS.” I personally don't agree but if it violates rules of Wikipedia, then all articles have to be removed, not only the Russian article. There are no exceptions. There are two options: or to remove all such articles, or to restore the Russian article. Norvikk (talk) 19:34, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bilateral relations-related deletion discussions. Gabe Iglesia (talk) 19:35, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. Gabe Iglesia (talk) 19:35, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Philippines-related deletion discussions. Gabe Iglesia (talk) 19:35, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. Gabe Iglesia (talk) 19:35, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Gabe Iglesia (talk) 19:35, 9 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep Passes WP:GNG. In Memoriam A.H.H. What, you egg?. 20:19, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * , the closing admin might give less weight to your AfD comment under WP:JUSTAVOTE. Would you explain your rationale for retention in more detail so that does not happen? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 07:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep Shahin (talk) 12:39, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
 * , the closing admin might give less weight to your AfD comment under WP:JUSTAVOTE. Would you explain your rationale for retention in more detail so that does not happen? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 07:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

You destroyed the Russian article. Tell your opinion for other similar articles. Go! Be consistent! Be brave! --Norvikk (talk) 12:57, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete . The article violates WP:NOTSTATS. Knobbly (talk) 13:58, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
 * @NorvikkI think it's a case of laziness rather than bravey, but I agree it's defiantely not WP:NPOV to favour one nation over another. Knobbly (talk) 13:58, 10 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete . It is hypocritical to keep these articles about India, Iran, the United States, and the Philippines and delete the article about Russia. AyodeleA1 (talk) 08:12, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Keep List of diplomatic visits to the United States per the significant coverage in reliable sources. The subject passes Notability, which says, "One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list." I will show below that "diplomatic visits to the United States" has been treated as "a group or set by independent reliable sources". Sources  Here are quotes from the article: "when President Louis Borno of Haiti indicated that he would like to make such a visit in 1926, he was told that he could, but only at his own expense.""The first visit to the United States officially classed as a state visit was that of President Syngman Rhee of Korea in 1954, followed by that of President Tubman of Liberia."<li>"Red carpets are the international norm, but in 1959 the president of the Republic of Ireland, Sean O’Kelly, arriving on St Patrick’s Day, was provided with a green carpet!"</li><li>"Presidents Truman and Eisenhower used to greet guests at the railway station or airport, but as the tempo of visits of all categories increased, Eisenhower was convinced in 1957 to move the greeting ceremony to the White House. As a result, the next scheduled visitor, King Saud of Saudi Arabia, took offence and cancelled his visit. In the end Eisenhower had to agree to go to the airport to meet him."</li><li>In 1939 US President Franklin Roosevelt invited Britain’s King George VI to visit the United States, having learnt that the king was about to visit Canada. This June 1939 visit was not only the first by a reigning British monarch to Canada, but also to the United States."</li><li>"US President Clinton delighted Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma by upgrading his visit to Washington as a state visit, only the fourth of his presidency, in response to Ukraine’s serious economic reforms and adherence to nuclear non-proliferation."</li><li>"This led to diplomatic turmoil when the president of the Republic of China visited the United States in 1995. Although President Lee [Teng-hui] was officially granted only a visa to attend a university reunion, Beijing’s government protested vociferously."</li><li>"This was one reason why in June 1939 when George VI visited the United States it was decided not to send the foreign secretary, Lord Halifax, as minister-in-attendance in order to avoid any suggestion of Anglo-American collusion. "</li></ol></li> <li> Here are quotes from the article: <ol><li>"In 1970, an otherwise well-choreographed visit by French President Georges Pompidou was marred when demonstrators protesting the sale of French warplanes to Libya jostled Pompidou and his wife on a side trip to Chicago."</li><li>"That’s a step above the reception accorded Haitian President Louis Borno, who was told in 1926 – before state visits existed in the U.S. government lexicon – that he could have an official visit, “but only at his own expense,” Goldstein said."</li><li>"The first visit to the United States officially classified as a state visit in modern times was that of President Syngman Rhee of Korea in 1954, Goldstein said."</li><li>"The president of the Republic of Ireland got a green carpet welcome in 1959."</li><li>"President Dwight Eisenhower was convinced in 1957 to move the greeting ceremony to the White House from the airport. The next visitor, King Saud of Saudi Arabia, was offended and canceled. “In the end,” Goldstein said, “Eisenhower had to agree to go to the airport to meet him.”"</li><li>"In 1976, Turkish President Cevdet Sunay spent 11 days in the U.S., stopping in 11 cities including Palm Springs, Calif., and Los Angeles."</li><li>"a lavish state dinner for Mexican President Felipe Calderon after news reports put the cost for the 2010 event – featuring entertainment by Beyonce – at nearly $1 million."</li></ol> <li> Per https://archive.org/details/summitdiplomacyp00plis, the "Possible copyright status: Copyright status reviewed by UF staff - out of copyright" (where "UF" refers to University of Florida). This book is in the public domain. A PDF of the book is available at https://archive.org/download/summitdiplomacyp00plis/summitdiplomacyp00plis.pdf. The book notes: "Throughout the history of the United States, there have been approximately 300 visits to this country by foreign chiefs of state, heads of government, and similarly ranked leaders, including foreign ministers. To the end of World War I there were only some 30 such visits. By way of contrast, since 1939 there have been more than 200, accounting for more than two-thirds of the total. This increasing hegira of foreign government leaders to the United States in the last two decades is rather impressive. In October 1929 Prime Minister Ramsay MacDonald of Great Britain came to Washington and conferred with President Herbert Hoover respecting the proposed London naval conference, the distinguished Briton remaining for a twelve-day visit.9 Prime Minister Churchill consulted with President Roosevelt in Washington on at least three occasions during World War II. Between 1939 and 1945 the President was host to about thirty visits. The roster includes the Presidents of Czechoslovakia, Iceland, and several Latin American countries; the exiled-President of Poland the Prime Ministers of Australia, Canada, and New Zealand; and members of European royalty, the latter accounting for about half of the visits.10 During the earlier years of President Truman's incumbency, state visits to Washington were occasional, but the tempo increased in his last term, 1949-1953. He played host to approximately twenty visits. Half of these were by chiefs of state, and the remainder included Prime Ministers, a President-elect, Crown Princes and Princesses, the deposed King Michael of Rumania, and General Charles deGaulle of France—all of whom were accorded appropriate state receptions. During the Truman Administration visitors came from Europe (including such countries as Belgium, France, Ireland, the Netherlands, Poland, Rumania, the United Kingdom, and the Scandinavian countries) and the Middle East (including Iran, Iraq, Israel, and Saudi Arabia), as well as from India, Pakistan, the Philippine Republic, Canada, and a number of the Latin American countries. The last (April 1952) and perhaps the most highly publicized was the visit of Queen Juliana of the Netherlands, which included not only the formal visit to the National Capital but also a three-week tour of the United States followed by a brief sojourn in Canada.10 Since the inauguration of Dwight D. Eisenhower as President of the United States in January 1953, the state visit to the United States has been employed on an unprecedented scale. If one includes Prime Minister Churchill's pre-inaugural visit of January 1953, there were an even fifty such visits to the United States during the first term, and some fifty-nine by the end of 1957.12 These embraced nineteen by chiefs of state13 and forty by heads of government and comparably ranked individuals.14 During 1957 there were the colorful state visits of King Saud of Saudi Arabia, of Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip of the United Kingdom, and of King Mohamed V of Morocco, as well as those of the President of Viet Nam, the Chancellor of West Germany (on his fifth visit in five years), and the Prime Ministers of France, Japan, and Pakistan. ... During the five-year period, 1953-1957, nearly all non- Communist Asian countries sent dignitaries on state visits to Washington, as did all non-Communist European states except Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and Switzerland. The President also played host to representatives from all of the British dominions except the Union of South Africa. However, during President Eisenhower's first term none of the state visitors came from any member of the League of Arab States, the Middle East being represented solely by Iran and Turkey. After hostilities broke out in Egypt, King Saud of Saudi Arabia and the Crown Prince of Iraq (as well as the Foreign Minister of Lebanon) arrived in Washington for overlapping visits in late January and early February, 1957. The distinguished guests of the United States Government therefore have represented nearly forty different countries during the past five years. The fact that most non- Communist countries of Europe and Asia were so represented, but only one-fourth of the Latin American neighbors, perhaps persuaded the Eisenhower Administration to promote the calling of the Panama Summit Conference in 1956, obtensibly to commemorate the 130th anniversary of the Congress of Panama. Normally an official state visit to Washington entails a three- day stay in the national capital. In exceptional cases a dignitary may be in Washington for only one day or, as in the case of President Syngman Rhee of the Republic of Korea (5 days) and King Saud of Saudi Arabia (10 days), the period may be extended.16 In addition to enjoying the Washington ceremonials, the visitor may spend additional time in the United States for a variety of reasons—to travel, to visit historic monuments and sites, to receive honorary degrees, to deliver public addresses, or for general good will purposes. Some have remained for as long as a month or more.17" A footnote: "17. The fifty-day visit of His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie, Emperor of Ethiopia, in 1954, was quite exceptional."</li> <li> The article's abstract notes: "Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia made six official state visits to the United States between 1954 and 1973. His reception by his American host, the President of the United States, reflected the official attitudes of the United States towards Africa in general and towards Ethiopia specifically during the Cold War era. Each visit is a special story, a strand that weaves a patterned fabric of the history and foreign relations of the two nations. The Emperor’s personal diplomacy during his state visits with Eisenhower in 1954, with Kennedy in 1963, with Johnson in 1967, and with Nixon in 1969, 1970, and 1973 produced varied results that demonstrated the depth of mutual reliance between the two nations as well as the international celebrity of Haile Selassie."</li> <li> The book notes: "…been a theme during the state visits to the United States by President Aquino in 1989, President Ramos in April 1998, President Estrada in 2000, and President Arroyo in August 2002. These visits were reciprocated by the state visits to the Phillipines of U.S. presidents William J. Clinton in November 1994 and George W. Bush in October 2003."</li> </ol> The list is not indiscriminate. What Wikipedia is not says Wikipedia articles should not be: "Summary-only descriptions of works", "Lyrics databases", "Excessive listings of unexplained statistics", and "Exhaustive logs of software updates". This article is none of these, so it is not indiscriminate.  The list might never be complete, which is fine.  It is fine for the list never to be complete per WikiProject Lists: Because of Wikipedia's role as an almanac as well as an encyclopedia, it contains a large number of lists. Some lists, such as the list of U.S. state birds, are typically complete and unlikely to change for a long time.

Some lists, however, cannot be considered complete, or even representative of the class of items being listed; such lists should be immediately preceded by the Expand list template, or one of the topic-specific variations that can be found at Category:List notification templates. Other lists, such as List of numbers, may never be fully complete, or may require constant updates to remain current – these are known as "dynamic lists", and should be preceded by the Dynamic list template. I do not think a complete list of all the diplomatic visits would be excessive given that incomplete lists are fine. General notability guideline There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow list of diplomatic visits to the United States to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 07:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * Regarding List of diplomatic visits to the Philippines, List of state visits to Iran, List of diplomatic visits to India, and List of heads of state and government visits to the Russian Federation (deleted at Articles for deletion/List of heads of state and government visits to the Russian Federation), it is likely they pass Notability so I am inclined to support retention. But I have not searched for sources for them so do not offer a position for now. Cunard (talk) 07:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep List of diplomatic visits to India per the sources provided by demonstrating that the topic passes Notability for being discussed "as a group or set by independent reliable sources. Cunard (talk) 04:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Pinging significant contributors to List of diplomatic visits to the United States:, , and . Cunard (talk) 07:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I have left notices at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics/American politics (diff), Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States (diff), Wikipedia talk:Tambayan Philippines diff), Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Iran (diff), and Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics (diff) asking editors to look for sources.


 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Cunard (talk) 07:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep. I began writing out a deletion rationale, and realized while typing it that it didn't make sense. The lists actually have a clearly defined scope: visits from heads of state to a sovereign country. There are actually not very many of those. Furthermore, contra, I do not believe these to be appropriate material for politician/head of state bios. A head of state who holds office for an entire term is likely to make 20+ visits in their career. In their biographies, these become distracting detail (I should know; I've spent a lot of time pruning such material). The only feasible alternatives are "list of visits by [head of state]", or "list of visits to [country]". Of the two alternatives, I find the latter to be a more logical and easy-to-follow alternative, although both could conceivably exist. As an aside, the topic "Diplomatic visits to [Country X]" is quite feasible as an article, but a separate article, which doesn't just refer to heads of state. Vanamonde (talk) 07:59, 11 June 2018 (UTC) I do apologise: the nomination was made by , not Cunard, as I said above: Cunard was responsible for the notification which led me here. ALSO, I believe we should revisit the Russian Federation list. While there was clearly consensus in that discussion, the discussion itself had only two participants, which isn't enough for a substantive topic, in my view. ALSO re: visits to the UN: it should be fairly straightforward to define article scope in a way that visits to the UN are not considered visits to the US (which they shouldn't be). Vanamonde (talk) 08:03, 11 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep There are clear inclusion and exclusion criteria per WP:LSC and each visit is not notable on its own. If the resulting list ends up being too large, it can be broken up by decades. Reliable sources do group diplomatic visits to a particular country such as WSJ's State Visits to India in 2010 gallery, The Hindu's piece on memorable state visits to India, India Today's US Presidential visits to India gallery. Moving the state visits to the visiting politician's article is not a good alternative as it cannot show how a country's relationship with others has evolved over the years. —Gazoth (talk) 15:17, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete all Ministerial-level visits to countries are entirely unremarkable (speaking as someone who's organised a couple of them in previous jobs). Leader-level visits are somewhat more notable, but are best covered in the articles on the relations between countries rather than rambling articles which attempt to lump them together in an unmanageable way. Nick-D (talk) 08:52, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete. Per nom, per LISTN. I might be able to support inclusion of pared down lists of notable visits, with each entry appropriately sourced, but what we have here are fairly indiscriment lists that will never be complete. I feel bad for the contributors, as clearly a lot of work went into these lists, but this not what wikipedia is for. Yilloslime (talk) 04:33, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The lead of List of diplomatic visits to the United States sets the inclusion criteria as "International trips made by the heads of state and heads of government to the United States". The lead of List of diplomatic visits to India sets the inclusion criteria as "a list of heads of state and heads of government who have visited India". How do these topics fail Notability (WP:LISTN) given the sources  and I provided above that show the topics have each been discussed "as a group or set by independent reliable sources"?  Cunard (talk) 04:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete all. I just can't see anyone really using these pages. They are likely to be incomplete and often lack sources, they are a hoaxers gift. A list of Formal head of state visits might have value if sourced but I don't think private visits or ministerial visits are notable Lyndaship (talk) 17:30, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * "I just can't see anyone really using these pages" – per Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions, that you "can't see anyone really using these pages" is not a policy-based reason for deletion. They are likely to be incomplete and often lack sources, they are a hoaxers gift. – regarding the first point, it is fine for lists to be incomplete per WikiProject Lists and Dynamic list, so this is not a policy-based reason for deletion. Regarding the second point, these articles do not lack sources. List of diplomatic visits to the United States has 212 sources, List of diplomatic visits to the Philippines has 226 sources, List of state visits to Iran has 92 sources, and List of diplomatic visits to India has 250 sources. While the sourcing can be improved, it is incorrect to say that these articles lack sources. Regarding the third point, that an article is "a hoaxers gift" is not a policy-based reason for deletion per Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. Cunard (talk) 04:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Very weak delete I feel like the list inclusion criteria will be to difficult to manage. Maybe something like a "diplomatic visits to the U.S. under the Trump Administration" would be more manageable. No comment on other countries' respective lists. (Alerted of this discussion due to posting at the WikiProject American politics talk page)&thinsp;&mdash; Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)&thinsp; 21:39, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Since you are only commenting about List of diplomatic visits to the United States, I will address that article only in my response. The first paragraph of Stand-alone lists (WP:LISTCRITERIA) says (my bolding): "(also known as or ) should be unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources. In cases where the membership criteria are subjective or likely to be disputed (for example, lists of unusual things or terrorist incidents), it is especially important that inclusion be based on reliable sources given with inline citations for each item." The inclusion criteria of List of diplomatic visits to the United States is "International trips made by the heads of state and heads of government to the United States". This criteria is "unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources" I presented above. WP:LISTCRITERIA supports retaining this article, not deleting it. Cunard (talk) 04:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment: I agree that ministerial-level visits are unremarkable and probably do not meet Notability. But I believe that leader-level visits do meet Notability. Both List of diplomatic visits to the United States and List of diplomatic visits to India set the inclusion criteria as leader-level visits only. These articles have policy-compliant inclusion criteria. List of state visits to Iran and List of diplomatic visits to the Philippines set the inclusion criteria as both leader-level visits and ministerial-level visits. To remedy the concerns about these lists' inclusion criteria being too broad, their inclusion criteria should be changed to include only leader-level visits. That requires a simple pruning of the list instead of complete deletion.  Cunard (talk) 04:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment: List of diplomatic visits to the Philippines and List of diplomatic visits to India were previously nominated for deletion at Articles for deletion/List of state visits to the Philippines. Cunard (talk) 07:50, 16 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Pinging significant contributors to List of diplomatic visits to the Philippines:, , , and . Pinging significant contributors to List of state visits to Iran who have not commented: , , and . Pinging significant contributors to List of diplomatic visits to India: , , and .  Cunard (talk) 07:50, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep I think there are people here who want this deleted for exactly opposing reasons. The nominator want this delete since they believe that including every visit is indiscriminate but having a partial list is not possible. I wonder how they reach this conclusion. Then there is another editor who supports the delete claiming that a partial list is not useful (implying that a complete list is useful?) and adding that references are insufficient (the last time I checked, List of diplomatic visits to India) had over 250 references and I know because I added a bunch of them even before this page was every nominated. The suggestion by the nominator is to merge the visits with the respective leaders visits which will (as already stated) will lead to unnecessary content inflation on those pages. I certainly believe that many of the events in the lists meet WP:GNG on their own, say the first visit of an American visit to the Indian Republic Day (which was hailed historic and received extensive news coverage) and some of them ever merit individual pages of their own. In addition, these lists provide the reader with a better understanding of each countries overall foreign relations with different countries (this point has already been alluded to before). Yes the lists do need some pruning and overall improvement. There can be a separate discussion on what is entailed during this pruning but I strongly believe that the solution is not an outright deletion of these pages. Adamgerber80 (talk) 14:09, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep per all the previous "Keep" votes. This data is valuable for students of diplomacy and useful as a historical record.   Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:44, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete--Nick-D says it best. Drmies (talk) 01:49, 17 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.