Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of eruvin (3rd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Note that per the discussion, I have renamed the article to List of places with eruvin, which provides a more accurate and descriptive title for the article relative to its content. North America1000 11:25, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

List of eruvin
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Lists of notable things are good ways to collect articles on Wikipedia. This is not a list of notable things; it's a catalog, and Wikipedia is not a catalog. None of the sites or structures on this list are notable enough for their own article, so this is really just a collection of external links and a maintenance chore for Wikipedia. Similarly, Wikipedia is not a directory. The links are rotting, and that debatably means that the list has on real criteria--some are added, some aren't, and there's no standard for inclusion other than someone found a reference for the structure and thinks it exists. This information is available elsewhere on the internet (even in list form), and the main eruv article can link to those lists if wants to reference this information. Mikeblas (talk) 03:47, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep. This list has clearly defined selection criteria, per WP:LSC. Additionally, the narrow scope of the list complies with WP:SALAT. The argument that many of the eruvs don't meet WP:GNG is a red herring; WP:LSC explains that "one of the functions of many lists on Wikipedia is providing an avenue for the retention of encyclopedic information that does not warrant separate articles". Likewise, the argument that the list is poorly sourced is also misplaced. Per WP:ATD, the solution is to find better sources ("If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page"). -- Notecardforfree (talk) 04:11, 3 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment. Actually, the referencing state goes directly to notability as third-party references are what establish notability, per WP:GNG. That guideline says "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list." Of the verifiable referenes in this list, the vast majority of those provided are from primary sources and are not independent of the subject. I'm convinced that the lack of good references is endemic to the non-notability of the subject(s), and therefore editing will not improve the list.


 * The inclusion criteria might be clear, but it is indiscriminate: essentially any eruv that was ever recognized is included; not the largest, or most important, or most recognizable, or those that contributed to historic events; there's no discerning criteria, so the list is indiscriminate. Because Wikipedia is not a catalog, a reasonable criteria must be given such that only encyclopedic content is included. -- Mikeblas (talk) 14:07, 3 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - it's not a list of eruvin; it's a list of places that have eruvin, which is not the same thing. There is not a single eruv that is notable enough to have an article on WP and I don't know of any article that permits a list of things of which ZERO have articles. There is an eruv set up in almost every place with a decent sized Jewish community. Not every single thing needs a list. —Мандичка YO 😜 06:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * , I think the question of whether this is (1) a list of eruvin or (2) a list of places that have eruvin is a distinction without a difference, but would your vote change if the title was changed to "list of places with eruvin" (or something like that)? -- Notecardforfree (talk) 07:02, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment. The problem with this list is not its title. -- Mikeblas (talk) 14:07, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The issue is not with the title. It's the notability. Eruvin are utilitarian things set up in Jewish neighborhoods - it is literally a technical boundary, that is not disputed or fought over with people shooting from the other side, etc. There's just no notability there.. —Мандичка YO 😜 21:33, 6 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete per Мандичка if this is as commonplace as described. Seems to be little more discriminate than List of places with synagogues. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:33, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * There are many of those lists actually: FuriouslySerene (talk) 15:55, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. FuriouslySerene (talk) 15:45, 3 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep - per WP:NOTESAL, all that is required is "if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources." Also per WP:CSC: "one of the functions of many lists on Wikipedia is providing an avenue for the retention of encyclopedic information that does not warrant separate articles." It has been discussed as a group in numerous places, including these books:, , and so on. Also the list is clearly useful to readers, and isn't indiscriminate. FuriouslySerene (talk) 16:05, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep  - having a list of X is acceptable in the Wikipedia community. In addition, I think it's notable enough that there is such a large list of places where eruvin exist, that is something to consider as well. Many of those places went through obstacles to get an eruv, and while in the main eruv article is not warranted a mention, it does deserve to be listed as a list of eruvin. And contrary to what was posted above, I am sure that there are some individual eruvin that do deserve their own individual entry on Wikipedia. Yossiea (talk) 16:25, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. North America1000 18:21, 3 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete per Wikimandia. Debresser (talk) 19:43, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep per Notecardforfree and Yossiea. This is a valuable list for Jews who want to know which cities have eruvin. If many of the refs are primary, it is a simple matter to find secondary refs for them. In fact, I'm adding another one right now. Yoninah (talk) 22:42, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep as it is a WP:N subject important to/for Category:Shabbat, and fits into good WP:CLNT, it has lots of WP:RS & WP:CITE, and some need updating (that's what happens the older WP gets and the longer "older" sources are not updated by newer editors). In any case, see also WP:NOTPAPER, and WP:DONOTDEMOLISH. Note also the excellent arguments that resulted in resounding Keeps in the 2 prior AFDs in 2008 (Articles for deletion/List of eruvin) and 2007 (Articles for deletion/List of communities with eruv). Thanks, IZAK (talk) 12:42, 8 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.