Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of events of the DC Universe (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. There does not appear to be a consensus at this time for deletion. If there are concerns that some of this material should be in other places instead, then a merge discussion should take place, at the article's talk page. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 00:24, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

List of events of the DC Universe
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log )

The topic of this article fails the general notability guideline because there are no third-party sources that cover "events of the DC universe" in direct detail. Whatever sources exist don't go into detail, and do not allow us to reliably discriminate between events and non-events. Most of all, this article will never be anything but WP:JUSTPLOT with a few sentences of introduction, which is WP:NOT what a Wikipedia article is for. There is no obvious role for any non-plot information to enter this article that isn't redundant with the main DC Comics article, indicating this article might even be a WP:CONTENTFORK. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:25, 17 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Articles for deletion/Chronology of Star Wars (3rd nomination)
 * Articles for deletion/Batman's career timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Wing Commander timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Alien and Predator timeline (2nd nomination)
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline of the Ultima Universe
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline of fictional historical events prior to the 20th century
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline of fictional historical events, Timeline of fictional future events
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline and alternate timelines for the Warcraft lore
 * Articles for deletion/World of Greyhawk timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Legacy of Kain timeline
 * Articles for deletion/A story timeline of Another World
 * Articles for deletion/Lost island timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Metal Gear timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Silent Möbius timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Metal gear solid timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Shadowrun timeline (3rd nomination)
 * Articles for deletion/Age of Worms Timeline
 * Articles for deletion/The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen timeline (3rd nomination)
 * Articles for deletion/Beyblade timeline (2nd nomination)
 * Articles for deletion/The X-Files Timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Hellboy fictional timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Dragon Ball alternate timelines
 * Articles for deletion/Neon Genesis Evangelion timeline (2nd nomination)
 * Articles for deletion/The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen timeline (3rd nomination)
 * Articles for deletion/Star Fleet Universe timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline of fictional future events
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline of Command & Conquer
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline of fictional historical events
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline of Grand Theft Auto III canon
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline of the Valiant Universe
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline of the Warhammer 40,000 universe
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline of the Phantasy Star series
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline of Harry Potter fan fiction
 * Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Timeline of Faerûn: Present
 * Articles for deletion/EverQuest timeline (3rd nomination)
 * Articles for deletion/Carlesean Timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Honorverse timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Beyblade timeline (2nd nomination)
 * Articles for deletion/Zork timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Terminator timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Shannara timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Sonic timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Bionicle timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Nosgoth timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Xanth timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Transformers timeline
 * Articles for deletion/The Sopranos timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline of Stargate
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline of Futurama
 * Articles for deletion/Timeline of Batman
 * Articles for deletion/Smallville timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Shadowrun timeline (3rd nomination)
 * Articles for deletion/Dragonlance timeline (2nd nomination)
 * Articles for deletion/Degrassi timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Pirate Timeline
 * Articles for deletion/Highlander Timelines
 * Articles for deletion/Castlevania timeline
 * Comment from Nominator As seen from the numerous AFDs listed in the "extended content", these fictional timelines are generally deleted as WP:PLOTONLY WP:CONTENTFORKs that violate WP:NOT. Keeping this article would go against policy and consensus practice. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:29, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment the article you nominated isn't a fictional timeline, it's a publication timeline, a timeline of the real world. The things you compare it to are fictional timelines. 65.94.47.63 (talk) 05:17, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment it's probably impossible to build a fictional timeline for the DC Universe, what with all the reboots it goes through every few years. 65.94.47.63 (talk) 05:50, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep a timeline of publication history, like that novel series have with the date the novel was published, is a reasonable list to have. As we have articles for each of these series, it should be navigable by year of publication. 65.94.47.63 (talk) 05:19, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * if this is kept rename to Publication history of DC Comics DC Universe 65.94.47.63 (talk) 05:20, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem is this list is not created as a publication history of DC Comics, which would begin in the 1930s and be much more comprehensive. It's an indiscriminate list of favorite issues of a few editors, beginning in the 1980s and selecting a few issues and excluding others based on the indiscriminate taste of comic book fans. A legitimate publication history is best covered at DC comics, and this list is not in any way a publication history. Shooterwalker (talk) 05:38, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTFINISHED; clearly it is incomplete. It would not be best covered in DC Comics, since any such list would be large, so should be a separate list article. 65.94.47.63 (talk) 05:49, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it's not clear. "Publication history" (as you have put it) is different in scope than this "list of events". Defending this article by saying it should be something totally different will mean that you're accepting huge editorial changes if it is kept, including the pruning of plot information and greater focus on publication. Shooterwalker (talk) 14:09, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Lists of novels have this format, date, title, summary, ISBN ; True, it should have more information, but WP:NOTFINISHED. 65.94.47.63 (talk) 04:19, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete This has no conceivable use for non-fans. It must be maintained by a fan wiki, not by Wikipedia. Shii (tock) 14:05, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Rename to List of DC Comics crossover events and prune accordingly. This seems to be the closest thing to whatever this list is trying for that would have clear inclusion criteria and be an index of notable topics (all of the crossover events have articles to my knowledge: Crisis on Infinite Earths, Zero Hour, Invasion!, etc.).  As it is, there is no apparent inclusion criteria; it includes limited series, single-title multiple-issue story arcs, and crossovers.  postdlf (talk) 16:23, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep It seems easy to find sources which discuss these major events. For example, we have Comic Book Collections for Libraries, aimed at the professional librarian, which discusses in detail the way that these major events were used to manage the continuity problems of the elaborate DC universe.  The contemporary comic book superhero discusses the impact of such events upon the readership while The Routledge companion to science fiction calls one of these events "the most significant storyline of this decade".  These sources demonstrate the notability of these events in critical analysis of the output of this major publishing house and so deletion would be contrary to our editing policy. Note also that the same nominator brought this same topic here earlier this year with much the same reasoning.  Our deletion policy advises that "It can be disruptive to repeatedly nominate a page in the hopes of getting a different outcome." Warden (talk) 18:32, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * In all fairness, it's a bit passive aggressive to state such a rule in the abstract, accusing by implication rather than coming straight out and saying that you believe this AFD is disruptive and why. Do you mean to say that this AFD is disruptive?  I don't think it is, considering that the previous AFD was closed four months ago as "no consensus".  postdlf (talk) 02:46, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Two or three paragraphs are not enough to make a stand-alone article, which requires "significant coverage". At best, the sources presented here can be used in DC Comics, but they don't make this article notable.Folken de Fanel (talk) 13:15, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Not to belabor this discussion. But you've found sources that talk about individual storylines such as Crisis on Infinite Earths and Identity Crisis (comics). There are no obvious policy issues with the individual articles listed here and I'm not nominating them for deletion. The problem is a lack of sources for this "list of events" in aggregate, whatever an "event" is supposed to be. Right now, it's just a loose collection of storylines, including some, but excluding others, at the whims of the editors and the flippant use of the word "event". According to WP:LISTN, "a list topic is considered notable if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources". I believe it's possible to provide some information that's WP:NOTJUSTPLOT for the individual storylines, but nothing in aggregate. That's why I'm not doing anything with the individual storylines, but nominating this list for deletion. Shooterwalker (talk) 14:09, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete, violates WP:GNG, WP:PLOT.Folken de Fanel (talk) 13:05, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions.  —Shooterwalker (talk) 14:12, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 15:17, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 15:17, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

included at the article specific to that event, rather than a list of "all events". Shooterwalker (talk) 06:24, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep 1) The list includes (almost exclusively) list of comics crossovers which are themselves notable. 2) It addresses them not from an INUNIVERSE perspective, but chronologically based on date that the comics were published. While not every list entry must be notable, a list of notable entries with a cohesive theme (in this case, fictional works with the same publisher and setting) should have a really compelling reason for deletion.  The nominator errs when he compares this to in-universe timelines. Jclemens (talk) 18:29, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think I'm making an error. The list is dominated by in universe details. The "notes" column is most of the substance of the article, and sometimes breaks into entire paragraphs of plot summaries. So my conclusion is that this article is just an extended plot summary, which is what Wikipedia is not. If the emphasis is supposed to be on the publications, then someone should rewrite the article that de-emphasizes the fitional details and offers more of the publishing context. I can't envision how this article would become something else, and I don't believe that's what this article is trying to achieve. So I'd ask that someone try to actually fix the article instead of just saying "keep". Shooterwalker (talk) 19:18, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you going to go around and list every list of episodes for TV shows for deletion then? They are mostly summaries of episodes, combined with airdates and titles. 65.94.47.63 (talk) 04:19, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Those are very different. For one, they're discriminate. It's not just "moments in a TV series", but a discriminate class of episodes. For two, they're usually organized by season, which means it's trivially easy to find a source that can talk about "season 3 of tv series", where you also list the episodes after you've discussed the broader class. At the heart of all of this is sourcing. There are lots of sources about seasons of TV series, where you can expand on it with a list of episodes in that season. There aren't sources that talk vaguely about events in any kind of fiction. If there are, then they talk separately about specific events, and would best be
 * Weak Keep I would suggest it be called 'List of major crossover events...' but the article seems to have legs, and does make a useful frame of reference for non continuity obsessives! Not that there'll be any continuity shortly.  Benny Digital  Speak Your Brains 20:09, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment Regarding the most recent entry on the deletion list above, Chronology of Star Wars, the totals of Keep !votes for the repeated AfDs is as follows:
 * It would normally be difficult to conclude that editors had chosen not to participate in an AfD, but the numbers speak for themselves here. The keep !votes in the last AfD were replaced by a small but unanimous opinion for Speedy close because the nominator was a sock puppet and the nomination was in bad faith, and so that the AfD could be reopened "by a human being".  Neither the editors nor the closing admin mentioned WP:Banning policy, and the closer simply noted in the absence of keep !votes that "the consensus to 'delete' is clear".  Unscintillating (talk) 03:19, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment The discussion page for this article states, "This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale."  I don't know how the encyclopedia should deal with this but I find it questionable that a High-importance article should be nominated for deletion.  Is there a noticeboard for questionable AfD nominations?  Unscintillating (talk) 03:20, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Project importance ratings are only relevant among project members, are made at the members' own discretion, and have absolutely no value at the global community level. Of course, any comics fan is likely to deem of the utmost importance any comics-related topic...but that doesn't mean the article meets community-defined quality criteria. So please don't mix up the two things. This nomination is not questionable at all since the list discussed here violates at least two major policies, WP:NOTPLOT and WP:V, and doesn't even meet the notability guideline. On the contrary, if one behavior is questionable here, it is yours. That's the second or third time I've seen you attempting to disrupt a deletion process with blatant policy distortion and threats to a nominator, just like you did here, so it would be better for everyone if you could just be reasonable and let deletion processes end.Folken de Fanel (talk) 14:26, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep as per Jclemens. These kinds of articles always seem to go up for deletion, and always could use more sourcing. That said, they do serve a purpose. Dayewalker (talk) 03:31, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete: There is not evidence that the list meets the criteria of notability for stand-alone list as the list topic has not been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources. Even with a search engine test, I do not see reliable secondary sources that give significant coverage to presume that the list meets the general notability guideline. In fact, all links appear to be for mirrors of this very article. Even changing the search terms to events and "DC Universe", I do not see reliable sources that give significant coverage. With no third-party sources, there is no presumption to have a list article. And while the list tries to give a focus on the publication history, it does not have a clear inclusion criteria, which means that the events are added if editors feel that they would count as an event, which implies that they are using original research to reach that conclusion as this is not a topic covered in third party sources. With no third party sources that have a similar list or references to back up the content, I do not think that it meets the criteria of appropriate topics for lists because the list falls into what Wikipedia is not by being an indiscriminate collection of information and I also believe it is an unnecessary content fork of the several DC Comics articles. Jfgslo (talk) 14:35, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete - fails WP:GNG. It has remained wholly unsourced over its five year life. No non-inuniverse content. No analysis or critical commentary. TerriersFan (talk) 15:28, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep The notable events have links to articles that cover each of them, so this is a good list article. These events are significant to get coverage in places that review comic books.   D r e a m Focus  20:49, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.