Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of famous Nairs


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was NO CONSENSUS TO DELETE. I count 12-6 in favor of Keep, but I didn't close as Keep in spite of the numbers because the argument that the list is and has been shown to be unmaintainable is the strongest argument made in my opinion.

List of famous Nairs
Wikipedia is not a directory; The persons listed here have not "significantly contributed to the list topic". Their contributions are in other fields and this list merely traces the caste they belong to. It is not known wheteher everyone listed here would like to be listed as members of a particular caste or whether they consider themselves to be members of a particular caste.Clt13 09:11, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak keep, but it needs heavy editing. I'd say you've unearthed a pretty good collection of related articles that need to be either reworked or deleted, but the list itself (with some work) seems OK. On its face it doesn't seem any different from, say, List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people (which as far as i know is an acceptable page), but there is one difference: Most, or maybe all, of the people on the Nair list are probably unknown to English speakers and are not notable enough to have even more than a few paragraphs attributed to their articles. (I mean if you click most of those links, they're stubs that offer no explanation as to the notability of the individual, and even some of those that do have serious POV issues.) So i guess my suggestion is two-fold: (1) Go through and get rid of all the non-notable people in the list (there are a couple, but apparently not many); and (2) order it by name, not 'major area of work'. I don't know enough about India to do the former myself though. ~ Lav-chan 09:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. If you order it by name, you might as well turn it into a category.  ColourBurst 22:33, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a nonsense article based on casteist bias,and most of these people listed have not made any contribution to socail life
 * Keep per Lav-chan Doctor Bruno  Talk  18:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep, but "unknown to English speakers" does not mean nonnotability. eg Li Bai is relatively unknown to English speakers, but is still notable enough to have an article.  ColourBurst 22:33, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak keep interesting concept, needs a bit of cleanup though. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 22:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep per lav-chan --Ageo020 03:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete It is pure patent nonsense. Nobody can verify the entries in the list. It is casteiest and very ofen self promotional. In many cases the listed people are those who have denounced their caste origins. It makes it doubly nonsensical. Kuntan 07:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. There was an Afd discussion last year at Articles for deletion/List of Famous Nairs. Being a newbie and less cynical than I am now, I argued vociferously to keep that article. For a few months, I tried to keep the list sane, failed utterly and even got abused by a few drive-by editors. I can say from my personal experience that there is no way this list can be verified, or names restricted only to those who are famouse because every other editor who passes by adds names of his choice. Tintin (talk) 08:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. The title is List of Famous Nairs yet 90% do not have their own page, and it is completely unreferenced considering the title is potential non-NPOV Todd661 11:24, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete, Wikipedia should not participate in the perpetuation of the racist and discriminatory caste system. The other lists of famous caste members should be deleted as well. Wikipedia should record history, not participate in it, as far as its actual content goes. The problems mentioned by Tintin, Clt13 and Todd661 are additional reasons for deleting the list. -- Kjkolb 12:52, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge to Nair as in the case of Syrian_Malabar_Nasrani-Bharatveer 13:09, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak keep - Requires heavy editing. -- Rajith Mohan (Talk to me...) :-) 14:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep or merge to Nair after removing all of the unsourced red links. Yamaguchi先生 23:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment.We should check whether this list serves any purpose at all. If you go to the List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people and the pages linked from there, you can see that in most of the pages there is a mention of the person being a gay / lesbian.  The person was famous as a gay /lesbian as well.  Here most of the Nairs mentioned are not famous as a Nair.  Of course it could be argued that it is a fact.  Then there are many such facts and people here can be put in any of the 2000 cast wise lists, 500 District wise lists, and so on. The point is whether it is relevant.  Of course, we have lists like List of Muslim actors, etc.  If these lists justify the presence of List of famous Nairs, we should debate the relevance of the policy WP:NOT ("having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic").  I think that should be one of the criteria for a list and we can start the deletions at List of famous Nairs as it serves no purpose other than being a breeding ground for many non-notable, unverifiable and often fictitious Nair “biographies”.  This may  not be applicable to lists like List of Muslim scientists which is related to Islamic science or list of members of a community / cast who contributed something to the “cast cause” or identified with that cast.Clt13 07:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete. I am certain none of these people were famous for being Nairs or whatever. Caste identities of people have been banned by law and hence this list should be deleted- Manu
 * Banned!!. The Union Ministers still have their caste name behind them Doctor Bruno  Talk  01:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Weak Keep - The concept is sound as per the List of Muslim actors, List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people, etc. However, it needs serious NPOV'ing, cleaning-up, and verification. Whether these people have denounced their caste origins or not - that is irrelevant. It is simply a list. I am not sure about serving to "further" casteist agendas or whatever. At the very least, it is a list of people. I would have said Keep had the article been better written. --Vivin Paliath ( വിവി൯ പാലിയത് )
 * Comment: I do not think that the comparisons given are appropriate. A list of famous caste members contributes to the perpetuation of racism and discrimination, but a list of Muslim actors does not. A person's caste should not even be mentioned in an article unless there is a reason to, such as experiencing discrimination that shaped the person's life. Wikipedia should not help, in any way or any amount, to preserve the idea that some people are better than others due to the caste they are born into. I think that part of the lack of objection to the list is that people would probably not mind being included on a list of Nairs very much, whereas being on a list of untouchables would probably be undesirable to many people. However, if we do not have a list of untouchables because it is undesirable and racist, we should not have lists of higher castes. -- Kjkolb 17:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: I do think the comparison is appropriate. Having a list of Nairs doesn't do anything to further "racism" or "discrimination". There is "racism" and "discrimination" on the basis of religion alone in many places. Being a member of a caste doesn't automatically mean you stand for discrimination or racism on that basis. I am a Nair, and I am proud of the heritage and culture behind that fact. I also acknowledge the various excesses and illogic behind caste rules and needless to say I think they are stupid. So how am I furthering "discrimination"? Identifying yourself or identifying someone as being from a caste is just that - identification. There is no agenda. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്) 16:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Strong Keep- the article is very informative. giving informations on any subject under the sun is the increases the relevance and scope of an encyclopedia. Some editing may be needed. then do it. Actually i'm a Christian. But i can tolerate and respect other Castes and creeds.. Add more and more informations in wikipedia. Rosalinta 17:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Would you care to have details of the spouses and offspring and pets and pet peeves of these famous people, as well? Kuntan 08:37, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment As I mentioned above, it is tough to maintain this article because of the many unimportant and unverified entries and too many drive-by editors (See Edit history). Can any of the people who voted to save the article volunteer to keep it clean ? I hope the responsibility doesn't end with the vote. Tintin (talk) 04:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment This debate would become very constructive, if the participants base the arguments on wikipedia policies. We are not making any value judgments or taking moral stand points. The aim is to discuss whether this list is acceptable as an article in wikipedia, wikipedia policies regarding this and also practical considerations in implementing them. Arguments like "giving informations on any subject under the sun is the increases the relevance and scope of an encyclopedia." are in fact against the policies. See WP:NOT(Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information)Clt13 11:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Keep but rename to "List of Nairs".Bakaman Bakatalk 04:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Strong Keep- Most of the persons got enlisted in the list of famous Nairs have incomparable contributions to the social life. Political leader Jaya Jaitly is the nephew of C.Sankaran Nair. (How many of us know that the National level leader and former M.P Jaya Jaitly is a Malayali...?). It was new information to me which I recieved from Nairs List. I have just picked a sample of valuable information. Many freedom Fighters and social reformers are enlisted in the list of famous Nairs. Are they not famous enough...? The next generation will tell that Gandhiji is not famous enough as model John Abraham or Aiswarya Rai. Somebody may ask who is Mannathu Padmanabhan...? I know only Sreesanth and Munaf Patel! Adv. P. R. Bijuchandran 04:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment This is precisely the point. Most of us know Jaya Jaitly (she is notable and so there should be a page on her) but not as a Nair, not as some one born at a particular hour of day, not as some one who keeps a particular pet, not as some one who frequents this particular restaurant, not as some one whose house number starts with *, etc. All such lists are irrelevant.Clt13 05:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Strong Keep- This item is much relevant in the present context.Several novel information which are not known to many can be made open for the generation.Parayanali 17:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.