Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of female drummers


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. postdlf (talk) 19:52, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

List of female drummers

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We're not going to genderize drumming. List is redundant to List of drummers. Drmies (talk) 04:00, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete: Wikipedia recognizes arbitrary changes, no matter how many, nor how often in a person's gender. Toddst1 (talk) 05:41, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 08:32, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 08:32, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

*Delete. Drmies nomination statement sums this up nicely - there is no need for this list. — sparklism hey! 11:49, 30 August 2013 (UTC) Warden makes a persuasive argument: changing to keep. — sparklism hey! 08:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep The list of drummers is quite large and so it makes sense to have more selective lists such as the list of jazz drummers too. Particular entries such as Lori Barbero don't appear in the larger list and a merger would then exclude the possibility of deletion per WP:MAD.  Female drummers are considered by sources as a distinctive group.  For example, see Not bad - for a girl which states that "women drummers still struggle to be taken seriously".  Deleting our list of them would be a contemptuous action in this context.  Note that there is a magazine dedicated to the topic with the clever name of Tom Tom.  And there's plenty of coverage in books from When the Drummers Were Women to Gender in the Music Industry: Rock, Discourse and Girl Power.  The topic therefore passes WP:LISTN. Warden (talk) 11:51, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The size of the list is no argument at all. Might as well divvy drummers up by age or ethnicity, or sexual preference. That Barbero is not in the "main" list is easily fixed--wait, I just did. Now, I am perfectly happy to accept that there are fewer women drummers than men drummers, but that in itself is no argument to divide them, and there are lots of arguments against them, none of which seem to be anticipated here. For instance, should List of drummers include boys AND girls? Just boys, since there is a list of female drummers? But if so, aren't we excluding female drummers from "drummers", essentially ghettoizing them? (Anyone remember Category:Female novelists?) And how does having a separate list serve the purpose of promoting equality--how? and was that our mission? BTW, I foresee that if Bradley Manning takes up drumming we might need yet another list. My main problem here, besides the ghettoizing by gender (and you can look that up), is that no argument is given in the article for its existence. And look at Drummer--if you want us to refrain from "contemptuous action", maybe you should re-write that article, bringing up the issues and their sources. Without any actual text on gender and drumming, this is just a lot of hot air and helps advance no one's cause. (And I note that none of the proponents of keeping this list have been bothered to turn their activist interest into verified text.) Drmies (talk) 23:17, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:EDITATAFD which states, "Participants in deletion discussions should not circumvent consensus by merging or copying material to another article unilaterally before the debate closes." Now that you've copied content to another page, we can't delete this page. Warden (talk) 23:31, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's called article improvement, Colonel. Do you really want to make people believe that one entry not being in the one list is an argument for keeping the other? Besides, I didn't copy it from the list: I copied it from your text here (note that I didn't include the band she's in, cause you didn't, and my summary indicates I got it from you; I don't think you ever edited the article). Drmies (talk) 23:40, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Lori Barero was just an example and there seem to be plenty more such as Rachel Carns. A systematic reconciliation of the lists would be a merger, not deletion. Warden (talk) 07:11, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * (EC) Oh come on. Even if a delete consensus were to emerge here, it would ahve had to be merge and redirect anyway. Any female drummers not in the master list (and properly referenced of course) would need to be added to that main list, and the editing history preserved. Lady  of  Shalott  23:43, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions.  Lady  of  Shalott  18:00, 30 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep per Warden and WP:CLT - see Category:Female drummers. Ansh666 01:49, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per Warden. I'm also a Tom Tom reader. I know of no other instrument that gathers such gender-oriented interest, almost to the point of being a contemporary phenomenon. Wwwhatsup (talk) 05:19, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:CLN; this list complements Category:Female drummers. Drumming is a traditionally male-dominated sphere and female drummers are of interest to researchers who seek to understand the role of women in music. This list meets WP:LISTN because of the many sources that treat female drummers as a group. There are magazines, websites, and books dedicated to female drummers (e.g. Tom Tom Magazine). Gobōnobō  + c 05:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - List of female drummers is not an equivalent sublist to List of jazz drummers. List of rock dummers, List of classical percussionists, and other such genre-based lists are equivalent. List of female drummers would be equivalent to List of male drummers, if it existed. If this this list is kept, every member should still be in List of drummers or some reasonable genre-based sublist. Lady  of  Shalott  13:49, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Given the discussion occurring above, I find it curious that nobody has seen fit to reply to my remarks here. Lady  of  Shalott  23:43, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Aren't you reminded of the "female novelist" issue? Drmies (talk) 00:18, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course: the word "duh" comes to mind. Lady  of  Shalott  00:21, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * We have many lists of women writers. There are so many sources which organise the topic in this way that we have a list of them too: List of biographical dictionaries of women writers in English.  It is therefore standard practise for both the world and Wikipedia to organise content in this way. Warden (talk) 07:11, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That's because there are biographies for female writers. In other words, that categorization has already been made. That drummers need to be segregated by gender is yet to be proven. (How about bass players and guitarists?) Drmies (talk) 21:51, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep, encyclopedic and educational. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 01:04, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.