Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional characters who can move at superhuman speeds


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was no consensus. Mango juice talk 16:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

List of fictional characters who can move at superhuman speeds

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Speedy delete - it's an indiscriminate list, exactly what Wikipedia is not per policy. Also, List of fictional characters who can heal and List of fictional characters who can manipulate ice or cold were deleted for basically the same reasons. We have such existing categories, see Category:Fictional characters who can move at superhuman speeds and the related ones there. I'm curious as to why this list wasn't deleted already. I suggest categorizing the needed articles listed before this one is gone. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 00:52, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Caveat As pointed out before, the list exists because the cats were thrown out with a CfD. Just pointing this out since we may be going into a cycle of "Cat bad, make List. No, List bad, make Cat. No..." where the material should just go. - J Greb 03:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep - I was unaware of the previous AfD, and would have argued against its deletion then too. (Not that we need concern ourselves with that as a "precedent", since consensus can change, after all.) Calling this "listcruft", or "an indiscriminate collection of information" is wholly incorrect. This in no way compares to the number of spoons at Buckingham Palace, or the number of blonde models who wear perfume. In my experience in most XfD discussions involving media-related information (whether it involves comics, television, film, or whatever), the cry of "listcruft" is essentially IDONTLIKEIT. Such information is, of course, more than just allowed on Wikipedia, it's welcome. There are taskforces, and full-WikiProjects. And the topic "Superpowers" is not non-notable. It's useful to research. There are a myriad of books/articles/etc about such characters and their superhuman abilities. Anyone interested might wish to check out: WikiProject Comics/useful pages, and several other such pages at the WikiProject. Incidentally, the current concensus at CfD is that features of fictional characters should in many cases not be categories, but instead should be listified. One of the strengths of a list is to show interrelationships and comparisons between topics (per WP:CLS). This of course does not preclude there being a list and a category (also per WP:CLS). - jc37 08:35, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete My problem with this sort of list is the fairly arbitrary nature of the grouping. Yes, in comic books an individual superpower often links characters in the minds of the readers, as powers are fairly integral to the medium.  But they remain only one single aspect of a character that's been pulled out.  I'm made this type of analogy before, but what is the essential difference between a list like this and, say, a "List of fictional people who have been gardening enthusiasts"?  It's still creating a link between a variety of fictional characters based on one modifier, one aspect, one characteristic.  There's no overall comparison between the characters beyond this one aspect.  I don't know if I would call it original research exactly (since there doesn't appear to be any particular meaning behind grouping them all) but I do believe it defines the word "indescriminate" -Markeer 17:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Because tomorrow one can decide to no longer be a gardening enthusiast. Tomorrow, someone can put down a spoon and no longer be a member of "People who carried spoons". That's not true about having a superhuman ability. And as it's a superhuman ability, that means it's not a mundane ability that all the rest of us humans have like "walking". So no, this is in no way close to being "indiscriminate". - jc37 04:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 11:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Weak keep (for now) as this is neither listcruft or indiscriminate (following jc37) and I also want to avoid the category/list yo-yoing described by J Greb (as these arose because the decision on the CfDs was to make them lists). However, this doesn't mean we eventually want to keep this and the others currently nominated (or the dozenish similar lists) but I don't want to have to vote on them singularly. What we really need to do is discuss the whole area (a discussion has started here) and reach a consensus on whether we want the lot and whether we want it as a list or a category or neither. I find myself feeling pretty neutral about the whole issue but it needs to be sorted out in a broader discussion rather than picking them off piecemeal with no broad consensus on whether these are good ideas or not (which will mean we will keep coming back to this every now and again). (Emperor 12:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC))
 * Interest based lists with short info beyond anything a cat listing could achieve are basically useful for the reader. Keep o r merge into something like "List of fictional characters by special ability". —AldeBaer 13:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, please take a look at this AfD and also other similar lists (I found List of fictional characters who can manipulate magnetic fields, List of fictional characters who can manipulate water, List of fictional characters who can manipulate wind, List of fictional characters who can manipulate time, List of fictional characters who can manipulate weather, List of fictional characters who can manipulate sound, List of fictional characters who can warp reality, List of fictional characters who can generate and manipulate radiation). There is the valid concern of how to decide on notability of a particular special ability (or "superpower"). Also, I hereby demand a List for fictional characters who are exceptionally good at math (e.g. Malcolm, Leaven). Therefore I'll go with tentative merge into a single list. In case the lists are kept seperately, a navigation template may be a good idea. —AldeBaer 13:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There is already List of comic book superpowers, such a list might compliment this (although, of course, another solution would be to merge all lists with that one but keep the examples trimmed down to a couple of key ones - as things currently stand) but wouldn't it be a big entry and end up being split into the lists again. I agree that as they stand they don't offer much beyond what a cat would do except these can be policed and rogue additions weeded out (which is why the CfDs for these things ended as a listify). However, as I said on the Comics Project, I notice Superspeed redirects to the relevant list and wonder if it would be possible to create an interesting and informative lead and have the list as examples? (Emperor 14:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC))
 * I agree (if that is what you propose) that it'd be a good idea to merge each list into an existing article on the respective superpower. Where such an article does not yet exist, the list article could be moved to the name of the superpower and be made into an article. Btw: These should really have been filed as a multiple article AfD. —AldeBaer 14:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes this is getting a little silly ;)
 * Anyway if you look at some of the entries Telekinesis I think what you'd find is that the editors of such solid entries would probably object quite strongly to jamming a big list in there (probably quite rightly). The bottom line is we can't just delete the lists and make them into cats (as we previously deleted the cats and made them into lists) so we need a better and longer lasting solution (which I think needs discussing in one place until we can work out a solution) and I'd favour one of 4 solutions:
 * Leave them be
 * Delete the lot and salt the earth on the lists and categories
 * Turn all the lists into redirects to the relevant section of List of comic book superpowers
 * Flesh out/rework/move the entries until they have a better lead and the list is more a list of examples (however, that is getting around to a point where we might as well go with option #3)
 * Just my thoughts. I think I'd probably favour #3 as it stands but I'd really want to kick this whole thing around and see what other people think. (Emperor 14:36, 3 September 2007 (UTC))
 * Weak delete This type of list, created and edited by fans, is potentially unmanageable because the fans aren't all in agreement. Should one include Superman, Captain Marvel, Mon-El, all Kryptonians and other entities whose "superspeed" is only one of many "superpowers"?  Is it "fair" to not include Superman on the list?  Should we add Sonic and Speedy and the Roadrunner, who are not humans moving at superhuman speed?  If one person takes some of the entries off, is not another person outraged?  And if an addition, that you have not heard of, is made without comment, are you irritated?  Faster speed is one of the basic superpower variations that appeals to all persons who have wished that they could move more quickly Mandsford 14:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete - I am a strong Inclusionist but there is a limit. This is total WP:LISTCRUFT. Canjth 15:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per not a directory of fictional characters with + lack of notability for this group.  Replace with a category if notability for this power is found Corpx 04:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete, fancruft. J I P  | Talk 10:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep, deleting with the argument that it can also be a category is useless. On many topics, we have both categories and lists. Categories are good for, well, categorizing, but are horrible for navigating articles. Lists are far superior, as they allow different sorting of the articles, context to be added, references to be added, etc.... --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 06:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. The list is much better than a category. "Superhuman speed" means a speed faster than real humans can move, therefore inclusion criteria could be made clear enough. Wryspy 00:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep, because although not quite as well-organized in the tables that the other articles of this nature are, it still concerns a notable topic and can be improved in a manner that is both convenient and helpful for many readers. Sincerely, --  Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 15:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

 NOTE TO CLOSING ADMIN: If this closes as a "Delete" please Salt the list article, the category, and any varient categories. The list was put in place as a result of a CfD that favored listing instead of the use of a category. If the list is found to be unacceptable, especially since arguments against the list are the same those made against the deleted category, neither format is suitable for this information. - J Greb 00:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletions.   -- John Vandenberg 07:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete. Better-defined inclusion criteria than List of fictional characters who can manipulate fire, but still not clear-cut, per Mandsford. shoy  14:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.