Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional versions of real people in Jinyong's wuxia novels


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was Delete. This almost fails db-nocontext as it stands. However, it probably represents a notable aspect of the author's novels, so no prejudice to re-creation if it can become a better stand-alone article. If anyone would like the text of the deleted version in order to do this, please leave a message on my talkpage.  E LIMINATOR JR  22:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

List of fictional versions of real people in Jinyong&

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Listcruft as per criteria 1 and 2 and fancruft. Also, the content of the list is non-notable and of little interest. Tomj 00:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete This is a list for the sake of having a list. The fact that no work has been done on it since its creation shows that such a list is of interest to a very small number of people. Faithlessthewonderboy 01:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A small number of English speakers, perhaps. However, Jin Yong is the best selling living Chinese author, so I'd wager that the number of people interested in his characters is substantial. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete - this can, and should, be easily covered in the article. As it stands, it's just a lict of people in a novel which features historical characters.  There are innumerable novels which do this, and I don't really know why we need to have a list of all of them for any given novel; too much of a plot summary, or book guide, to me.  --Haemo 01:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NOT, and WP:NOT. Nen  yedi  • (Deeds•Talk) 02:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. as mentioned on the talk page, this isn't even a complete article. Fictional versions of what? What real people are there versions of?  Zchris87v  06:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As I noted below, you could have found that out very easily by looking up our articles on these people. I didn't know who most of them were either, but I didn't assume that they were non-notable without even looking. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment listcruft and WP:fancruft are both POV essays, not policy. They really shouldn't be used as "the" reasons in an AFD.  Also voters may be interested to know Jinyong is to the China and many parts Southeast Asia what Shakespeare is to Westerners, except probably more well-read.  That said, it's a bit out of place in the English wiki and maybe there's a place for it in the Chinese wiki or it really should be merged into the Jinyung article.  There won't be any more work done on it because the list can only be finite, the guy only wrote 14 novels.  Tendancer 15:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I just realized there's an article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_figures_portrayed_by_Shakespeare ... this now moves me inclined to give a weak keep rather than being ambivalent, as [Jinyong]] may be the most well-read author in the history of China. This list is not well-formulated (and should've been named "list of historical figures portrayed by Jinyong" and I think the original creator might've had issues with the language, but at least that's something that can be fixed by better editors.  I don't see any notability issues here: it's not an exaggeration to say at least 90% of all literate people who can read Mandarin have read jinyong--his works are monstrously successful in Asia way beyond anything authors like Stephen King/Danielle Steele etc have achieved in e.g. the US--though understandably to Westerner's this may seen non-notable because they never heard of him. Tendancer 04:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Weak delete A list such as this could be useful, if there were some information in it, or even links. Deleting this will not hamper anyone who wants to do the work for doing it right.  DGG (talk) 22:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. Wikifying this list took me about one minute.  Any experienced Wikipedian could have done the same, and discovered who these figures from Chinese history are.  The article can be renamed per Tendancer's suggestion — if so, the renaming should probably take into account that our article is named Jin Yong, with Jinyong as a redirect.  That article says, "Jin Yong's books are often said to be a mini-encyclopedia on Chinese customs and culture" and "Historical figures often intermingle with fictional ones, making it difficult for the layperson to distinguish which is which — a feature that attests to the believability of his characters."  Given the notability of the author and the lack of widespread knowledge of Chinese history in the English-speaking world, the educational value of this list is clear.  —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the wikilinking...I also think this article has potential and is easily fixable...will endeavor to make improvements prior to end of discussion. Tendancer 01:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Citi Cat   ♫  18:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep this author has as much influence as anyone on how the Chinese public at large see historical figures, its history and its relationship with foreigners, that I think is reason enough to keep. Matters of formatting, title etc can be fixed. As to this list being essentially fixed, I'm new to Afds but isn't a common complaint against lists here, that some are essentially endless? I'm sure that some editors would be pleased that a list is finite.KTo288 20:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep - this doesn't look at Wuxia's fiction any more deeply than the myriad ways J.R.R. Tolkien's works, and D&D, Star Wars, etc. have been dissected and analyzed on Wikipedia. It may also help readers of Wuxia discern the totally fictional characters from those taken from reality.   Th e Tr ans hu man ist    22:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep This is an encyclopedia which is not limited by paper. Wikipedia should be more than a list of albums by U2, pokemon characters and last week's baseball.  Improving legitimate articles, as Tendancer said and Josiah Rowe has done, is more constructive than thinking anything a bit foreign should go because only a few people - like a billion Chinese - might be interested in it.   Nick mallory 01:44, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment not only interested, it has influenced how Chinese people see foreigners and outsiders and promotes an idealised form of patriotism. Wuxia in Chinese pop culture occupies much the same space as science fiction does in the West, think of the indirect influence Heinlein and "Starship Troopers" has had on a certain segment of American populace with regards to poltics and personal ethics, Jinyong occupies much the same place in Chinese culture. Its not just important that Chinese people are interested in the topic, but important because it informs how a section of that number see and behave towards the West.KTo288 02:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete or Transwiki to Wikibooks.  Not to place for analysis/dissection of literature Corpx 06:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: How does a list of historical characters, with links to the Wikipedia articles on the real people they're based on, constitute analysis or dissection? In articles on each of the books in question, there would probably be a list of characters, including the ones created by Jin Yong and the ones he took from history.  The latter would be linked to the relevant Wikipedia articles.  That action isn't analysis or dissection. This is merely a centralization of that information into one, almanac-style page, for ease of reference.  There's no OR here. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a list of real people who are portrayed in these novels.   Anyone mentioned in any of the books would warrant inclusion here, making it loosely associated.    Corpx 22:59, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So per the rationale given, you would be receptive to nominating this list for deletion as well? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_figures_portrayed_by_Shakespeare Tendancer 23:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a tough one.  While it has a lot of trivial mentions, it also has lots of people with not-so-minor roles.  Corpx 23:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As far as I understand, this list is the same. I believe that some of the figures listed play major roles in the wuxia novels, while others are mere cameos. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:27, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, this one doesnt tell me the roles of these people and it is small enough to be merged into something else Corpx 05:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well if it's too small for your tastes, one can then simply add content to it. You do notice you just changed your reasoning for wanting to delete this yet again.  (first "not to place for analysis/dissection of literature".  Josiah pointed out there're hardly any analysis, you then said it's 2) "loosely associated".  When it was pointed out it's no more so than the Shakespeare list, you claim 3) the Shakespeare list has people with not-so-minor roles.  When Josiah pointed out some of the folks in this list is major, now your reason becomes it "doesn't tell me the roles"...I thought your reason #1 was you don't think wiki should dissect/analyze the literature and go on detail about the characters and their roles???  (Per all the reason above, if legit, you should be after the Shakespeare list then, as unlike this ones it contains a litany of WP:OR and WP:NOV violating interpretations such as "Hotspur or Harry Percy (Henry Percy), brave and chivalrous but hot-headed and sometimes comical, is an important foil to Hal, and leader of the rebel forces, in Henry IV, Part 1. ")  Some consistency in your reasoning would be helpful for actual discussion.  15:46, 28 August 2007 (UTC)  Tendancer 15:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment the usual arguement against list articles is "...thats what we have categories for." This is one case were I beleive categories would be a mistake, I'm sure editors on the articles of historical people will take umbrage at having a category "appeared as a fictional character in Jinyong novel".KTo288 22:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Note this list article was created due to a (scantily-participated) "listify and delete" decision arising from this CFD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_17#Category:Fictional_versions_of_real_people_in_Jinyong.27s_wuxia_novels Tendancer 23:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just a comment I find it rather entertaining in that CFD the nominator called Jin Yong an "alternate history fiction writer". By that interpretation I guess Shakespeare is also just an "alternate history fiction playwright" due to his dramatization of Richard II, Julius Caesar, etc...and I can only surmise what one would need to call Homer for his massive dramatic license he took for the Odyssey... For billions of Asians, Jin Yong is at least as well known, and viewed in equally high esteem as these historic figures would be to Westerners.  Tendancer 23:28, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per Nenyedi --  Chil dzy  ¤  Ta lk  11:22, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.