Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional war heroes


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS. Those suggesting that the problems cited with this list can be fixed should now leap into action and fix them. -Splash talk 00:03, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

List of fictional war heroes
Too ambigious, scope is too large for one article. Scottie theNerd 08:47, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * As some further food for thought, we should consider the debate about the war hero article. If we can't decide and agree on real life heroes, I don't think a list of fictional heroes would be any easier. --Scottie theNerd 15:16, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete or as alternative, shorten the scope of the article. Kusonaga 11:26, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I would tend to shorten the scope, but am at a loss on how to do it in this case. - Mgm|(talk) 11:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with that. I can't think of how you could possibly reduce the scope of a general list of heroes. If we divide it, we'd just end up with a list of characters by game, movie, book, or whatever. I don't think a centralised list would work. At best, it could be a category, but that's still very ambigious and not helpful at all. --Scottie theNerd 13:11, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * One could simply reduce the scope to 'fictional war heroes in existing wars', so that we exclude fictional wars. Kusonaga 14:57, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * What's an "existing" war? --Scottie theNerd 15:14, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Stuff like World War One, World War Two, Korean War, Gulf War, Vietnam War Kusonaga 15:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Thought so, but then that would be a list/category by itself. Furthermore, there aren't many notable fictional heroes in real life wars, as fiction either doesn't present characters as war heroes, or takes place in alternate timelines. I think your proposed scope would be an ideal size, but I don't think the content would be too useful. --Scottie theNerd 15:58, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I could name quite a few war heroes (in the comics at least), but I agree that is best used as a category, rather than an article. Kusonaga 16:17, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete This is far too nebulous a subject for a page - fictional people in real historical wars? Fictional people in fictional wars - fantasy wars?  If it has to exist at all as a research aid, better as a series of categories than a single page. -- (aeropagitica) [[Image:Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg|25px|UK]] 15:16, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Categorisation is the key. Dan 18:30, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Categories require that every entry in a list is worthy of its own page, which is seldom, if ever, the case. Thus, Wikipedia has lists. Turnstep 13:17, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Besides the previous comments, there's a large element of POV involved.  The term "war hero" requires that a wide segment of the public acknowledge the subject as such, and that's not often verifiable fictionally.  Was Mace Windu or General Grievous acknowledged by the Republic's populace as being war heroes?  No way of knowing, nor is there any way of knowing for much of that list. RGTraynor 19:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point, although those characters are never referred to as war heroes in Star Wars. On the other hand, Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi were widely regarded as war heroes in the Republic. The person who made up that list seems to have thrown in all the Star Wars and LOTR characters he could think of. --Scottie theNerd 05:13, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom.NeoJustin 00:03, January 4, 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep I'm not convinced that "large scope" is a valid reason for deletion. I'm also not swayed by the POV argument, as these are *fictional* people, so it only requires that the author create the person as a war hero. I'd support a better worded criteria on the page. If the page grows out of control, repost it to AfD, but as it is, I can see no reason to delete.Turnstep 13:17, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Even without the criteria, a list of fictional heroes wouldn't be particularly useful, at least not as useful as a category. --Scottie theNerd 13:43, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It certainly does require that the author create the person as a war hero; I just question that -- using that list as a guide -- the authors actually did so. RGTraynor 16:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I should also point out that it isn't uncommon for authors to understate a character's heroism or completely omit any direct mention of heroism. For example, in the Tomorrow series, the character Ellie Linton is responsible for many deeds of daring and bravery, but she is never hailed as a hero by her friends or any other character. There's also the ambiguity of what defines a "hero" (see: war hero), and I don't often see probable heroes being cited as such. There's also the case of authors portraying non-heroes as being heroic (George Orwell's Animal Farm portrays Napoleon has being a war hero, even though he never actually did anything heroic). Ultimately, when it comes to stating someone as a hero, it all comes down to their actions, and that tends to be difficult to interpret. --Scottie theNerd 16:10, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep I'm just saying we shorten the scope to fictional characters in real-life wars. Kusonaga 13:38, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that be a different article/category by itself though? --Scottie theNerd 13:43, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


 * KEEP!!! these lists are useful for artists, writers and students. Kingturtle 20:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, the list is POV, unmaintainable, ambiguous, incomplete, too short, too long, unencyclopaedic, unbalanced, etc. etc. But (a) it is work in progress and (b) it is useful . Please let our decision be based on the assumption that people who use Wikipedia can decide for themselves whether they agree with the characters listed here or not. Keep. (more) &lt; K  F &gt;  23:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Which is exactly what we are doing. Delete per all above. -  brenneman (t) (c)  07:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment WHAT is? Giving users a chance to decide for themselves if they find an article useful or not? How are we doing this? By deleting it "per above" before they get a chance to have a look at it? I may have completely misunderstood your reason for voting delete; in that case, please enlighten me. I just can't make head or tail of "Which is exactly what we are doing". Thanks in advance, &lt; K  F &gt;  21:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Let me explain myself. I did not just put down all the LOTR and Star Wars characters I could think off. If I did do that, I would have put down Admiral Piett. The LOTR characters (Aragon, Legolas, Gimili) were instrumental in the War of the Ring. The Star Wars characters: Luke destroyed the Death Star, Han helped capture the shield generator on Endor, Lando destroyed the second Death Star. General Grievous was considered a hero in the Confederacy. Personally, I think a war hero should be someone instrumental in battle and someone who helps boost morale.- JustPhil 18:27, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: If we're going to keep and maintain this article, it would be vital that entries should be briefly explained. Aside from that, how exactly where Legolas and Gimli vital to the War of the Ring? --Scottie theNerd 22:19, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: They killed a lot of Orcs during Helm's Deep and Pelennor Fields.- JustPhil 12:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: They killed approximate 30 orcs each, probably the highest kill count at the Hornburg. There is no evidence of them scoring any kills at the Pelennor, though it can only be assumed. However, killing a lot of Orcs does not necessarily make someone a hero, and they were hardly significant in the whole War of the Ring. --Scottie theNerd 13:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Beyond that, the definition of a "war hero" doesn't encompass someone who does heroic or great deeds. It's about someone who is publically acclaimed for having done heroic or great deeds ... whether or not that someone actually did them.  You are assuming, without verifiable attribution, that all of these characters fit the bill.  RGTraynor 15:10, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.