Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of golf courses in the United Kingdom


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There are several ideas which have found consensus in this discussion. There is a consensus that this is a notable topic. There is also consensus, including from several editors who believe this article should be kept, that this article, as presently constituted, does not comply with Wikipedia polices and guidelines. While AfD may not be cleanup that does not mean that articles which do not comply with policies and guidelines must be kept indefinitely. There is, instead, consensus that this article should focus only on notable golf courses in order to comply with policies and guidelines. Hopefully with this basis in consensus this interested editors will have a path on how to improve this article to be of encyclopedic use to our readers. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:48, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

List of golf courses in the United Kingdom

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Failure of WP:NOTDIRECTORY (7. Simple listings). This is an indiscriminate simple list of mostly red-linked non-notable golf courses without any context or clear criteria beyond geography; Category:Golf clubs and courses in the United Kingdom fulfils the latter purpose for articles on notable subjects. Many of the blue links are actually redirects because the club/courses themselves have little to make them independently notable. Finally, such lists are almost impossible to maintain – I spent a fair amount of time trying to tidy this one up and add citations, but there is just no coverage of the subject as as a whole except for databases and directories which are also never up-to-date due to the rate of turnover (new courses, closures, other changes, etc.). wjematherplease leave a message... 15:18, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Golf-related deletion discussions. wjematherplease leave a message... 15:24, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. wjematherplease leave a message... 15:24, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. wjematherplease leave a message... 15:24, 31 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Support deletion for the same reasons as above. This and the other similar articles don’t add any coverage to the subject and a category for notable individual courses is sufficient.Tracland (talk) 15:42, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Could easily be turned into a tabled list with info about each club by county. If anything in cases where the clubs might not be notable enough for separate articles, basic data in a list is most useful. † Encyclopædius  16:11, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Per may rationale above, such a task is almost impossible due to the scope (which is everything) and would also violate WP:NOTGUIDE. wjematherplease leave a message...
 * Keep as index of articles per WP:LISTPURP and complement to Category:Golf clubs and courses in the United Kingdom per WP:CLN. Removing any redlink entry that does not actually merit an article would completely obviate the nom's conmplaints, and is a matter for cleanup, not deletion. postdlf (talk) 16:31, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * No, it actually wouldn't. It would also raise new issues. Such a list would have no determinable or definable criteria for inclusion and as such would serve no purpose other than as an index but without a broad enough scope. wjematherplease leave a message... 17:07, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The inclusion criteria would be the same as the category. postdlf (talk) 18:52, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per Encyclopædius's argument. LeBron4 (talk) 16:50, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete There are 3 to 4 thousand courses in the UK, perhaps 5,000 if we add defunct courses. Bit of black art as to what to include, par-3 courses, pitch and putt? The reality is that this list is not maintained and is worse than useless. What purpose does an out-of-date list serve. None that I can see. The idea that it can "easily be turned into a tabled list with info about each club by county" is pure fantasy, I'm afraid. Not quite as bad as maintaining a list of coffee shops in the UK, but well beyond out present effort level. Nigej (talk) 17:12, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * That's a straw man; it doesn't need to be a list of every golf course that exists, just the ones that have articles. This was already addressed above. postdlf (talk) 17:22, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Several point come to mind. 1. For golfing purposes the UK/Ireland is normally thought of as 4 countries. 2. Lists of notable courses could readily be added to articles like Golf in Ireland where there is already such a list. Golf in Wales seems to be attempting to have a complete list, but could be trimmed down to notable courses. I'd have no objection to similar lists for England and Scotland. 3. The current name implies a complete list. If we are going for a partial list we need a rename at the least. In summary my view is that notable courses can be listed as part of a "Golf in X" article. Nigej (talk) 17:34, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The category structure is subcategorized in the way you suggest for the lists. That's a development matter, not deletion, in any event, and this page title would still be helpful as a set index if those are split off (even if just sublists within the "Golf in X" articles, just as we have Category:Golf clubs and courses in the United Kingdom as a parent category). No rename is necessary, we do not include self-references such as "notable X" in page titles; it has long been understood and supported by consensus that inclusion for most lists is limited just to notable examples (as you could see with nearly every list of companies, lists of people, etc.). postdlf (talk) 17:47, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You are describing the WP world as you would like it, not how it is. Most lists are actually littered with redlinks and/or unlinked entries; they also have defined criteria, unlike what you are suggesting here. wjematherplease leave a message... 18:01, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The criteria is "golf course" that exists "in the United Kingdom", and it is trivial to additionally limit it to "has an article." It may take some effort, but AFD is WP:NOTCLEANUP. We do not delete pages for complaints that can be fixed through editing or further development. See also policy at WP:ATD. postdlf (talk) 18:11, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * "Exists and has article" are not legitimate or even definable criteria, and ignores the significant number of bluelink redirects in this list. wjematherplease leave a message... 18:23, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You're just saying words at this point. There are clearly plenty of articles on golf courses located in the United Kingdom, as demonstrated by the category. We index articles by what they are per WP:LISTPURP and WP:NOTDIR. Good luck on Wikipedia and have a Happy New Year, postdlf (talk) 18:29, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for being so condescending. wjematherplease leave a message... 18:38, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep, Split and Trim: If the UK is like the US, there will be SIGCOV of this as a group, so it passes LISTN. It also passes CLN/AOAL, it seems useful from a navigation perspective. The lists could be eventually formed into sortable tables with more sourced data, which will enhance its usefulness. CLN states that, ""
 * I agree the list should be split into 4 articles, both from a maintenance and SIGCOV perspective per WP:LSC, "" I believe the majority of the RS would be at this level.
 * As with all lists, the lede needs to precisely state the criteria for inclusion per WP:LSC
 * I hate lists that are enourmous collections of spam redlinks, these should be removed during the split, with the exception of those that have a clear claim of notability. I understand that redlinks may inspire good articles, but an enourmous collection of redlinks such as this would be better at WikiProject Golf to encourage others to create articles. The second criteria at WP:CSC does allow for non-notabile list items, but I believe the list would be strongest if it conforms more closely to the third criteria at WP:CSC based on ""
 * Finally consider removing the galleries.
 *  // Timothy ::  talk  20:31, 31 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep and remove the redlinks, as AfD is not for cleanup. The list has a clear inclusion criteria, and having a category is not a valid reason for deletion, per WP:CLN.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 09:20, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep I notice a lot of the blue links are to redirects or one sentence stubs. Need to remove the red links and the redirects.  If any of the stubs aren't notable delete them.   D r e a m Focus  07:44, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep - While I can see why some editors would see this as a good candidate for deletion, on balance I think this could be a useful list and helpful for navigation and information. However I agree this needs to be reworked. Particularly I feel it needs to be heavily pruned and reduced to notable courses, and certainly only those clubs or course with their own articles should appear on it. As it is, the list has too many minor courses that realistically are never going to have articles and which editors are going to find impossible to keep track of (for instance one of the read links is to Camperdown in Dundee, which has now closed). As an aside there is also a question of whether should it be restricted to active courses or historic ones as well? Dunarc (talk) 21:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:TNT, WP:LIST, WP:NOTWEBHOST, and WP:NOTDIR. What a huge mess. We are not a web host to list a whole bunch of golf clubs, most of which are private, many are not notable, and all of which cater to the top 1%. I've seen many complaints about having too many articles about the aristocracy, and while I don't agree completely with it, that seems to be the consensus. I would be willing to change my mind if given good reasons. Bearian (talk) 17:57, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that the article should be deleted. I voted to delete because I think the article is a list of non notable golf courses that doesn't meet the criteria for a list article. However, I don't understand your other comments. Whether or not a golf course is public or private is unlikely to have any relevance to its general notability nor does the nature of the individuals to which they cater. (By a long way it would be untrue to say all golf courses only cater to the top 1%). The aristocracy appears to have no relevance whatsoever to a list of golf courses. What is the purpose of these comments with regards to whether or not the article should be deleted? Tracland (talk) 18:24, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep, then prune the red links and the redirects that do not lead to golf course articles – per WP:NOTDUPE relative to Category:Golf clubs and courses in the United Kingdom. This is a functional navigational aid that is actually superior to the category, because additional content can be added that category pages do not support. Pruning the red links and stated redirects solves any WP:NOTDIRECTORY issues, and red links for golf courses that meet notability guidelines that do not have articles can be added as long as supporting references from reliable sources are also added. North America1000 04:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. WP:NOTDIR. "Keep and clean up" is a cop-out unless you're willing it to do it yourself. I'd keep a bluelinked list with more info, but it's unlikely anybody wants to actually make the effort. If so, they can do it in draft space.  Sandstein   13:09, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. Per WP:NOTDIR keep only the notable courses, remove all others (redlinks). Ajf773 (talk) 09:16, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Lots of the redlinks are notable (just don't have articles as yet) and lots of the bluelinks are not (redirects or should be deleted/redirected). wjematherplease leave a message... 09:23, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep - has a valid purpose in that it clearly complements Category:Golf clubs and courses in the United Kingdom Spiderone  19:08, 11 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.