Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of homicides in California


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Seraphimblade Talk to me 08:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

List of homicides in California

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Another endless "list" article and is duplicative of Category:Murder in California. AldezD (talk) 21:07, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. The list is neither endless nor duplicative and is limited to notable homicides that have Wikipedia articles already written about them. Cbl62 (talk) 21:09, 19 September 2022 (UTC) Also passes WP:NLIST with multiple sources (even books) discussing and connecting homicides in California as a notable topic. Examples are set forth in the "References" and "Further reading" sections. Cbl62 (talk) 17:50, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Who/what determines "notable homicides" tagged with Category:Murder in California vs. linked articles in List of homicides in California? If Category:Murder in California is tagged to "articles already written about them", why does there need to be duplication with List of homicides in California? AldezD (talk) 21:25, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * It is not duplication. The categories are incomplete and do not include many forms of homicide, including those in the California genocide. This article collects in one place notable California homicides and provides a richness of information not available in a mere category. It includes summaries of each incident as well as sortable columns by date and number of victims. I only began the list two days ago, but when it's done, it will be fully sourced and probably one of my best contributions in 15 years of work at Wikipedia. Cbl62 (talk) 21:38, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * As for "who decides" which homicides get included, it's a matter of notability and community consensus, like any Wikipedia article or list. Cbl62 (talk) 21:40, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "[When] it's done, it will be fully sourced and probably one of my best contributions in 15 years of work at Wikipedia." WP:DRAFT, WP:DRAFTIFY, WP:AFDTODRAFT. Why are you creating content in article space that's a draft and incomplete? AldezD (talk) 00:54, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The list is already main-space ready. It will just keep getting better. Cbl62 (talk) 05:02, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

There's a section titled "Polices shootouts and ambushes". This is not main-space ready. AldezD (talk) 14:13, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for catching one misplaced character in a 41,000 85,614-byte article. Feel free to leave any similar comments on the article talk page ... or just fix it. Cbl62 (talk)


 * Either delete or rename. This article will never be a list of all homicides in California as stated in its title.  If it is intended to be a list of notable homicides, then criteria for notability (e.g., an article already written on the English Wikipedia, newspaper or other citations available, link to a WP policy, etc.) should be in a hidden header  because every homicide has been notable to somebody. As it currently appears, the article likely lists only a tiny percentage of the its stated title, probably the same for notable homicides, and is not yet suitable for the main space. Ira Leviton (talk)
 * What do you mean by "a hidden header"? I am open to renaming, what type of renaming would you suggest? The opening of the list already includes a scope note that it is limited to homicides "that have a Wikipedia article". With this limitation, we include only homicides that are sufficiently notable to warrant a stand-alone article. Cbl62 (talk) 16:34, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Hidden header was the wrong term; I should have said something like a hidden message with explicit instructions, such as "Do not add unless there is an already an article on the English Wikipedia", "make sure to keep chronologic order", or whatever else might be required to keep the list in good order. (Even though the opening sentence says what the article is about, with the potential for many editors to add to it because there have been thousands of homicides, it's likely to need more instructions to prevent the inclusion of non-notable homicides or random arrangements.)  As far as renaming, just add "notable" – List of notable homicides in California.  Ira Leviton (talk) 18:23, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Ira. My intention is to curate the list to ensure that it doesn't get bogged down with non-notable stuff. I am fine with all of your suggestions, including adding "notable" to the title. I will also add instructions along the lines of what you have suggested. Cbl62 (talk) 18:32, 20 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete It should be deleted because it's neither a useful article nor a wiki-suitable page. Theraza (talk) 16:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * By this edit, you added to a link to profitablegatetocontent.com (?) but my browser warns me not to go there. I therefore reverted your addition. Can you explain what it is? Cbl62 (talk) 17:48, 20 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Note to nominator and closer. The article has now expanded by more than three-fold since nomination, now covering more than 200 entries and over 225 sources. I respectfully ask the nominator to reconsider whether they still believe this should actually be deleted and ask the closer to consider the improved status. Cbl62 (talk) 04:07, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment This is still a listcruft article that will never encompass all "homicides in California." It's partially duplicative of the categories already mentioned in the deletion nomination. It summarizes some but not all homicides in California. AldezD (talk) 13:49, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Of course, it doesn't summarize "all homicides in California." It is limited to notable homicides, and a move as suggested above by Ira Leviton to clarify this ("List of notable homicides in California") is fine with me. Given that numerous publications (including books) have been written about the topic of California homicides, the topic passes WP:NLIST and certainly doesn't fall into the realm of "listcruft". Cbl62 (talk) 13:57, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Category:Murder in California is already tagged to appropriate articles. A separate article summarizing "notable" homicides is neither useful nor necessary. AldezD (talk) 14:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The category you cite does not collect all of the notable homicides in one place. Nor does it furnish the same rich array of data, including summary of the incident, date, location, and source material. It is in no way equivalent or duplicative. Your subjective opinion that the list is "cruft" is essentially an "I don't like it" assertion. The real issue is whether or not it passes WP:NLIST, which it clearly does with numerous sources discussing California homicides as a notable topic. Cbl62 (talk) 16:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime, Events, Lists,  and California. • Gene93k (talk) 00:04, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete This article just passed the 100K mark, and is still probably incomplete even if it is intended to cover only notable cases. California is a big state with more people than Lagos. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 00:11, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The issue is whether the list is notable, not whether it's complete. If size become an issue, it may make sense to split between Northern and Southern California, but that's an editing issue. Do you believe that the list is not notable under WP:NLIST?

Relisting comment: Relisting. This article has received 200+ edits since it was nominated. Please evaluate recent changes to the article when offering your opinion on what should happen with this article. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:33, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete First create a Homicides in California and see how it goes, before creating a list. Shashank5988 (talk) 14:45, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep The list has far more information than the category does, so is more useful. It doesn't list every homicide, only those that have Wikipedia articles, so is a valid navigational list.   D r e a m Focus  15:20, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * It just so happens that I have a draft, Draft:Murder in California. It could be moved into mainspace and have this list merged into it. BD2412  T 05:53, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep I don't see either the nominator nor any "delete" !votes giving a valid reason why this list doesn't meet WP:NLIST. Sources in the article demonstrate that "murders in California" are clearly a notable topic as a group. WP:CSC supports the decision to list only those homicides that meet our notability guidelines, so the lack of non-exhaustiveness is not an issue to me. Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 00:33, 28 September 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.