Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of hotels (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was KEEP. I see no valid deletion rationale below (alas, not even "lists are a blight on Wikipedia"), just WP:VAGUEWAVEs and complaints about completely mundane editing issues. As observed below, it is common practice to have lists limited to only notable entries that merit articles (or listing sublists of such notable entries), and it is not disputed that there are notable hotels. Normal editing takes over from there, no matter the concern about "bloat potential." postdlf (talk) 05:41, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

List of hotels
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log )

All the hotels in the world, really? The article has nothing to limit its incredible bloat potential, especially since it includes redlinks. Obvious example of Overlistification. This article isn't useful without an enforced definition of "notable hotels".  Ja Ga  talk 06:35, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * And I forgot to add WP:NOTDIRECTORY. -- Ja Ga  talk 06:38, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * No. It is intended to be the notable top hotels by country A-Z, five or four star hotels, notable skyscraper landmarks or historic hotels which are covered in multiple reliable publications and have encyclopedia info beyond the usual hotel listing amenities which make them notable and encyclopedic. It should not be a directory of every hotel in every country. Is List of minor planets an example of Overlistification, Bullshit.♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:41, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Curb your tone, Blofeld. There's no need for incivility. The list should only allow hotels that already have articles. Redlinks can live in your user space or a project space, per WP:REDDEAL (at the bottom of the section). -- Ja Ga  talk 19:09, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * As an administrator you should also know that you should notify the article creator before taking an article to AFD.♦ Dr. Blofeld  20:16, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I did notify the creator. But I did forget to also notify you, a major contributor, so my apologies for that. -- Ja Ga  talk 07:19, 5 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete I nominated this not so long ago, but did not know the right words to use in the nomination so it was "speedy kept". Now JaGa has been able to articulate using the rules why this is just not the sort of article that should be here. The rules and policy pages (Overlistification and WP:NOTDIRECTORY) seem to sum up the problems this article has. Mtking (talk) 06:50, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete per "Wikipedia is not a directory". Lists are a blight on Wikipedia.  This one could become an endless list of hotels with potentially millions of entries.--Dmol (talk) 07:08, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll turn them into tabled lists with info.♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Split. Deletion of this article is not necessary.  Changing it to a disambiguation page and linking it to pages such as List of five-star hotels in Dubai would be sufficient.  --Djc wi (talk) 08:44, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. But even that would be an endless list, as each major city in the world would have to be listed. And still we'd have the problem that "Wikipedia is not a directory"--Dmol (talk) 08:49, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That list could be huge, better to leave it to a "list of five-star hotels in county x", but then we have the issue of WP:NOTDIRECTORY and/or WP:NOTTRAVEL Mtking (talk) 08:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Userfy. Point taken.  Then, this should be userfied to either the author or the largest contributor.  This article looks like too much was poured into it to just delete.  --Djc wi (talk) 09:28, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Strong keep This is not intended to be a directory of every hotel in the world. It is supposed to be a list of the top hotels in any country e.g five and four star hotels/skyscrapers/notable country house hotels. This list was voted to be kept just a week ago.♦ Dr. Blofeld  10:39, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment - but that still could be huge, and who would decide which hotel get included and that still leave the issue of WP:NOTDIRECTORY and/or WP:NOTTRAVEL Mtking (talk) 10:51, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment The reason we can do a red-link including list like National Register of Historic Places listings in Alabama is because the notability is clearly defined. There's no room for debate, no way to squeeze in spam links. Either the building is on the registry or it isn't. The same is not true for this article. The definition for "notability" you recently added is vague enough for all kinds of cruft to sneak in. Got a fleabag hotel in Ibiza you want to advertise? List of hotels! You got a B&B that Washington may or may not have once slept in? List of hotels! No, if this list is to have any hope of being useful, only include hotels with links. Otherwise it's a linkfarm disaster. -- Ja Ga  talk 19:23, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

You really know bugger all about hotels do you. Fleabag hotels and a crummy B& Bs in Washington rarely get adequate coverage in books. Try doing the research first before blabbing your mouth off about them. Who exactly is going to list such crappy hotels anyway? These lists are supposed to be luxury hotels and those with an important history, Immediately that excludes at least 3/4 of hotels in any given country.. Secondly removing all of the red links exposes the current severe bias towards anglo country hotels on wikipedia. I've identified hotels which are covered in multiple publications and in due course will become articles in their own right.♦ Dr. Blofeld  20:14, 4 April 2011 (UTC) WP:NOTDIRECTORY is quite frankly a misused guideline given that most of our tens of thousands of lists on wikipedia are nothing more that directory lists.♦ Dr. Blofeld  10:54, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you really think an article called "List of hotels" is not going to be a mega-spam magnet? You can find reviews of pretty much every hotel in "multiple publications". Your criteria is far too vague. You might as well start List of Europeans next. -- Ja Ga  talk 20:37, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

My criteria isn't too vague. If you actually look at the lists you'll see so far there is not a massive number of hotels for each country and if you google or google book any of them you'll find tons of hits. I know what I'm doing on this and the lists are on my watchlist so should anybody add a crummy hotel in washington or scabby hotel in Ibiza they will be removed instantly. Honestly the number of luxury hotels or those with significant history in any country is not that many. Obviously US and UK will be the toughest and will perhaps require the toughest criteria. I am only interested in hotels personally which have an interesting history over centuries or are prominent luxurious architectural buildings. I am also good at writing about hotels without making them sound like an advert and making them encyclopedic,. The majority of hotels are not encyclopedic. And no you can't find encyclopedic coverage of most hotels in multiple publications. There is a difference between travel brochures which are number of rooms/facilities and price and those which contain actual extensive coverage on architecture and there history in books, especially those beyond travel guides which are mentioned in important books on other subjects from terrorism and economic growth to books about war etc. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  20:51, 4 April 2011 (UTC) In many countries five star hotels, even in London are self proclaimed and lack official guidelines. What I have done is included hotels which are widely covered in reliable publications, enough info to quantify articles and notability. Given time I will go through and add sources to support each one and split into smaller lists. Top hotels in any country are notable and this is supposed to be a refined list. If hotels are not found in multiple reliable books then they are removed, plain and simple. I've already put a lot of work into this and have been writing articles like Penally Abbey etc which have historical note. Hotels seem to get people worked up on here for some reason. Notable hotels are no different to any other notable landmarks, This is not supposed to be a directory of every hotel or motel. i think its a useful source to have the top/historic hotels listed under every country in a list and the history shows that people actually search for this on wikipedia on a daily basis.♦ Dr. Blofeld  10:39, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It's still going to be a huge list. Even having only 4 star or better, there'll by from a dozen to thousands for most of the 200 countries in the world. Who is going to decide what ones are notable (other than star rating). It's wholly subjective and will still be a directory.--Dmol (talk) 10:57, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not true. Most countries at best have 50 notable hotels, in fact most of the countries barely have more than 10 which are particularly notable. Countries like US, UK, France, Spain etc will have tons of notable hotels of course but coverage in notable publications beyond travel books usually indicates what it notable.♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Comment - So you are saying that this should be a list of every hotel that has (or would qualify for) a standalone encyclopaedia article ? In which case is this not what categories are for ? Mtking (talk) 11:00, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Mmm I think i'll split by letter and turn into encyclopedic tables with info summarising them something like Grade I listed buildings in Brighton and Hove. But it will take time. Oh and if we can have such lists of every listed building in Brighton we can surely have lists of the most notable hotels by country... ♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:02, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment - You are right that is going to take a long time, but will also take lots of work to keep up-to-date, is it really worth all the time and effort for something that is a travel guide, would that better hosted at either Wikitravel or Wikia travel instead? Mtking (talk) 11:20, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

What makes say Tourism in Turkey etc anything other than WP:NOTTRAVEL?? What makes List of Cobra characters WP:NOTCARTOON? You could argue that List of Power Rangers characters or list of Star Wars characters are better suited to fan sites. Look how many people actually visit the page looking for a decent list. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:25, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Comment - Setting aside that is a WP:OTHERSTUFF argument which should be avoided, does not "Category:Hotels by city" (can't make the link to the page work) already do that. Mtking (talk) 11:32, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * So what if it does? WP:CLN makes this more than acceptable (pages and categories co-existing).  Lugnuts  (talk) 13:04, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

No it doesn't. It neither routes out notable missing articles and it neither has the potential for information. These lists can and will contain informationwhich a category cannot provide. But again your argument is redundant as we have tens of thousands of lists which are nothing more that a mirror of categories. I'm not buying the NOTDIRECTORY argument when the vast majority of our lists contains merely names. Personally I think tabled lists with info summary is probably a better solution than creating lots of seperate stubs on hotels. If the hotels really have enough info for seperate articles then they can branch out later.♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:38, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I've begun converting the lists into tabled lists. See List of hotels: Countries A. Already I've excluded hotels from the list I couldn't find any info about. Books are usually a good indication of notability. Obviously it is going to take months if not years to build a comprehensive list with encyclopedic info but for starters I can convert into tables and the information will gradually be built over time. like the rest of wikipedia.. I'll try to get the A list formatted today so you can at least see where this list is headed and that it is a] not my intention to create useless directory of every hotel in the world b] it is possible to root out notable hotels and provide information about them beyond a travel guide. c] That they can have encyclopedic use and once fully completed can be a very useful source.♦ Dr. Blofeld  13:31, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep Very likely search term, page has clear inclusion criteria of notable content and is used as a springboard to List of hotels: Countries A, etc.  Lugnuts  (talk) 13:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Question Is notability clearly defined? Four and five stars, as decided by whom? The only way this article can avoid mega-bloat is to only allow hotels that already have articles. The redlinks can be userfied/projectfied. -- Ja Ga  talk 19:02, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep Normal article, has potential coverage. Also constructive in making summaries of notes that maybe included, such as landmarks. The instance of this article, doesn't satisfy the criteria of WP:NOTADIRECTORY. (Read the policy details, carefully! It refers to overlinking, logs, release notes, not the article content). Just because the article has is large that doesn't mean it also fits Overlistification (WP:BIAS, WP:WORLDVIEW). Many featured lists article also focus on table format content. I am suppose you are also going to account accusations of your non-AGF civilty onto that. Control Yourself. Further, i think other contents can be supplemented such as Cottage/Inns and Various Contextual Introductions lead section. --111.241.72.178 (talk) 15:22, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep I think the article should be kept as long as a clear criteria for inclusion is adhered to. 4 star and above works for me. Perhaps the title should be changed to reflect that if this is kept? Qrsdogg (talk) 19:17, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The reason why not is because many countries don't have an official hotel system and bill themselves as five star when they are really only four or three etc, Many London hotels bill themselves as five star and are really only four given by AA. Same with four star. Also there are three star hotels which may be very prominent skyscrapers or historic country hotels which have an important history. But yes the the list will mostly be those which are universally considered four or five stars hotels and which have decent coverage in books to render them notable. If you can't find adequate coverage of it then its probably not worth commenting on, unless it is an extremely poor part of the world and coverage is as poor. A notable hotel in Chad of course may only be 2 star by western standards! Contrary though to this nomination there is actually a finite number of top hotels by country and usually it is pretty easy to root them out by google book searches. Obviously countries like Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy. Spain, UK and US in due course will have enough notable hotels to qualify for seperate lists if not by state. I'm creating tabled lists which are intended to be filled out with history background and summary and if there is no information in google books I generally will not include them in the lists. It will take a long time to built an adequate coverage, but same with rest of wikipedia... ♦ Dr. Blofeld  19:37, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the detailed explanation, I agree with your take on this. I've struck out part of my comment. Qrsdogg (talk) 20:02, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Actually there's nothing in the notability criteria that states that being a four star hotel or higher automatically confers notability, and I seriously doubt it should automatically confer notability. Such a judgment on notability should not be decided by this list. The only way to insure proper adherence of notability for the items in this list is to only allow hotels with articles. -- Ja Ga  talk 06:41, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I am working on this gradually and aim to cover notable hotels fairly by country. The bias is extreme at the moment. Novotel Conakry for instance is the sort of notable hotel which was missing. I do think five star hotels are virtually always very notable and most four star hotels can claim notability although some are generic. Most three star hotels I'd say are not really notable, depends on their history and architecture. If they are like the tallest building in the city or where the place of a historic fire or something then I'd say they are notable. But it is all decided by book sources. Books tend to write about hotels which are high quality and the best or have historical significance. You won't get decent publications writing about crummy Ibiza hotels. Some books will have a fair bit of info on the notable luxury hotels in Ibiza which are likely notable. Every country has notable hotels. It will be me who decides what or what is not notable.♦  Dr. Blofeld  09:33, 5 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep This article is an ongoing draft, which admittedly has major content issues. There is a need for some clear inclusion criteria and it may be neccessary to cut the list down slightly. However deletion (I might add that it was nominated without any attempt to contact the clearly active good faith main contributor - which is generally good wiketiquette) is not the answer. The idea behind this draft is to follow the normal approach to list building on wikipedia - create a big list with all the notable content on, and try to break off the parts which deserve their own section, obviously that can't be done overnight. It seems to me that this is a better approach than the old version of this article or the current approach of people creating lists completely at random (see List of hotels in Malta and List of Las Vegas Strip hotels) Bob House 884 (talk) 19:41, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah I agree List of hotels in Malta should be deleted. I am doing something about inclusion see List of hotels: Countries A so far. If the hotel does not contain adequate coverage in books I will simply remove it. It is intended to be those hotels which are universally considered five star or four star luxury hotels, those of architectural prominence, and those which are historically significant, like many of the country house hotels in england for instance. What or what not to include is dictated by sources... Most countries will be pretty easy as they don't have a great number of particularly notable hotels. The difficult ones will be US, UK, France in particular which have a massive number of notable hotels but I think it is possible to whittle down a list by state of the most notable ones. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  19:45, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep - Per Dr. Blofeld, although in my view and as with similar lists only hotels with WP articles should be included. Rangoon11 (talk) 21:15, 5 April 2011 (UTC)


 * The problem with that is that the extreme bias of wikipedia completely ignores the very top hotels from many countries which are far more notable than many of the hotels in the US and UK currently with wikipedia articles. The hotels in the lists will all be started eventually...♦ Dr. Blofeld  21:58, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * If the redlinks were userfied, we wouldn't have to worry about the list becoming a spam magnet. There's no reason to keep a to-do list in article space. -- Ja Ga  talk 16:08, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:42, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep again. We just had this discussion recently.  My arguments then are the same as they are now: "Not a valid reason to delete. List do not have to be completed, ever. There are sources listing all the four star hotels, or whatever the rating is to indicate which are most notable. Also those with historical importance are surely notable. I'd think the number of notable hotels in some countries is long enough to warrant its own article of course. If this article gets too long, it can always split out into separate ones. Dream Focus 04:11, 22 March 2011 (UTC)"   D r e a m Focus  14:48, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete - Criteria are irredeemably vague. What makes a luxury hotel more notable than my uncle's B&B?  Both of the local newspapers had articles about it!  Who decides that something is a "4-star hotel?"  Fine as a category, and it doesn't take long to create stubs. Matchups 15:12, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Multiple reliable sources containing encyclopedic information is the criteria. Hardly vague and no that rules out most hotels. Your uncle's B&B would not have coverage in multiple book sources. Would your uncle's B&B get coverage in New York Magazine? Sources dictate what or what is notable, like the rest of wikipedia. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:25, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Let's say he puts a redlink to his uncle's B&B on the list page, complete with a few references. What then? You remove it, saying the references aren't good enough? But there are multiple independent articles that discuss the B&B! He points to Places of local interest. An edit war ensues. Then what? You can't AfD an entry in a list, but its notability is definitely debatable. Without some sort of iron-clad inclusion criteria, like being on a Historical Register, this just doesn't work. A list in Wikipedia should never allow non-notable entries, and this list doesn't have a mechanism to keep them out. -- Ja Ga  talk 16:08, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * If his uncle's hotel has significant coverage in multiple book sources or The Good Hotel Guide or whatever then chances are it is notable. Something tells me though you would not find his uncle's hotel listed with any adequate information in google books so if he tried listing it I'd simply revert him.♦ Dr. Blofeld  16:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * There's nothing in WP:N that defines "reliable publications" as requiring at least one reference from Google books, so your grounds for reverting are flimsy. The problem is, there is no rock-solid and clearly defined test for hotel/B&B notability. Even being a four star hotel does not automatically confer notability. So how could the community decide what redlink hotels have a right to be on this list? It looks like your plan is to control the content of the list yourself, and be the self-appointed judge of what has a right to be there. That's no good. You don't WP:OWN the list, even if you've contributed 99% of the content. This simply doesn't work. -- Ja Ga  talk 21:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete - I don't think it would be possible to list all the hotels om the world, and even if that was done, to maintain and modify it as they close down and are created/re-opened. -- Another Type of Zombie talk  16:00, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

"I don't think it would be possible to list all the hotels om the world". LOL do you think this is what the list is for?? re you blind or just a plain zombie? What part about '''This is a list of what are intended to be the notable top hotels by country A-Z, five or four star hotels, notable skyscraper landmarks or historic hotels which are covered in multiple reliable publications. It should not be a directory of every hotel in every country.''' aren't you seeing??♦ Dr. Blofeld  16:20, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Again with the incivility. You could have made your point without being rude, but you chose not to. Bullying can be a very effective way to influence a debate, but I can't say I'm impressed by it. -- Ja Ga  talk 21:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * LOL @ the incivility. Make dumb comments which are not true then you're not going to get a round of applause from me. Could I really? I've tried explaining myself to you being perfectly rationale and you've made life particularly difficult here and unnecessary. Your warped ideas about list building are over the top and rather misguided. We have thousands of open incomplete lists on wikipedia which have a poorly defined criteria for inclusion and few people worry about them. LOL at WP:OWN. You know what. If somebody did actually bother to help build the list I'd be pleasantly surprised. You seem to think that somebody is going to be adding lists of B & Bs and Ibiza 1-star chav hotels. Utter rubbish. Given that every entry on this list is going to have an article soon enough the community if a hotel truly is not notable then I'm pretty sure it would end up here anywhere. I aim to get all of the hotels linked currently red linked with articles within a few weeks, so what exactly is the problem with you?♦ Dr. Blofeld  21:37, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep no policy-based reason for deletion given. Lists of lists are perfectly acceptable. Jclemens (talk) 16:23, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep per Jclemens. Perfectly reasonable to organize articles and potential articles in a list. Clearly the point is not to list every hotel in the world. If the criteria for inclusion are vague, they can be refined as the article develops. Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:56, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I've been starting a few today like Rainmaker Hotel and Hotel El-Aurassi which appeared notable because of book coverage. The intention is to start a handful of the most notable hotels from each country of the world to try to cover it evenly. Like Hotel Plaza Grande, Quito etc... Google book search it.. The list is certainly manageable given that most hotels are not notable and do not have adequate coverage in many books.♦ Dr. Blofeld  21:42, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.