Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ice hockey clubs playing in the league of another country


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Fails LISTN. Spartaz Humbug! 14:38, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

List of ice hockey clubs playing in the league of another country

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Content fails WP:LISTN for stand-alone lists, and the items have not been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources. As such, the content is unsourced, and possibly original research. Flibirigit (talk) 01:48, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete Or perhaps merge some of the content into List of ice hockey leagues, which is a more straight forward and understandable page. Definitely no need for both, and there seems to be some real liberties taken to identify the "country" of a league.18abruce (talk) 02:30, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. MT TrainDiscuss 02:56, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. MT TrainDiscuss 02:56, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Keep(Note: editor changed to Merge in later comment) The only difference is that it's not football, cannot see how this is any different, with the exception of North American organisations all the rest are all ran by national federations. The only argument here is "I only know football so only football should be included" is a bizarre argument to say the least. If there's flaws in the article shouldn't you strive to improve them? Abcmaxx (talk) 00:24, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment this is an interesting one since it was broken out from List of sports clubs playing in the league of another country. I'm sad since WP:ILIKEIT, but the problem is: there's one RSSSF source on that page, which is basically trivia. The obvious option would be a merge, but we'd be merging with a document that is probably also original research apart from maybe the football clubs. I think delete's probably correct but for both articles. SportingFlyer (talk) 04:21, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * List of sports clubs playing in the league of another country started out as only about football clubs and the football list was only broken out when this list was also created. The original article seems to have gone on an WP:SYNTH tangent to include all sports despite not having any references talking about National-based leagues for the other sports. The prime example is the NHL itself. I do not think many people or references would consider it a primarily American league, it is a North American league based in both Canada and the United States (with lots of emphasis in Canada including founding) that happens to have most of its teams in one country. It is SYHTH to extrapolate that it is an American league. The same could be said for the many of the leagues in the world in many sports. Yosemiter (talk) 04:32, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Based on that, I'd probably recommend a delete of everything that's not a football (soccer) team, then, since those at least have a chance of being notable, and because there's more of a clear distinction in football (for instance, teams in Wales would qualify for the Champions League as an English team despite being from Wales.) SportingFlyer (talk) 05:30, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per nomination. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:57, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete this page per LISTN and GNG. Agree with SportingFlyer that List of sports clubs playing in the league of another country should be moved back (or at least have its history merged) to List of association football clubs playing in the league of another country. The entire premise of that page for "playing in another country" is made clear in the lead: Conditions for competing in a "foreign" league, as well as in a continental/confederational competition, are set case-by-case by the international sports federation as well as the respective confederation and national sport associations involved. As far as I am aware, footy is one of the few sports where this is almost always the case as national sporting federations are not involved with all of the other professional sports leagues. Each sport should be on a case-by-case basis, while it might be true for footy and some rugby, it is definitely not true for American football and rarely true in hockey, baseball, and basketball. Yosemiter (talk) 13:38, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually, it is the opposite, I know hockey quite well and less about football. But I do know that in football, the national-based federations tend to regulate the leagues. This is not the normally case in the upper levels of professional hockey. (The junior ice hockey leagues do tend to be regulate by the regulating federations though.) What we are saying is this is a WP:SYNTHESIS of extrapolation from: Sanctioned football national leagues -> sanctioned football teams playing in another sanctioned football national league -> foreign football teams playing another nation's league -> foreign teams playing in another nation's league That is several steps of synthesis without any sources to back it up. See my NHL example earlier. It is neither a Canadian or American league, it is both, and therefore cannot be considered any country's league. Yosemiter (talk) 00:40, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Apart from NHL and KHL (which is a glorified Russian league run by Russia) all the others are ran national federations and similar fashion to football. In US/Canada minor leagues are ran by the individual states.Abcmaxx (talk) 00:52, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Except that is not true, none of the Canadian or American professional leagues are involved or directly controlled by their national governing bodies (Hockey Canada and USA Hockey respectively). As for others in Europe, many have some involvement or are affiliated such as the Swedish Hockey League, but some others are not such as Deutsche Eishockey Liga. So the entire argument here is that subject was created from original research with no sources to back up X to Y, hence the AfD. (And I have no idea what you mean by "US/Canada minor leagues are ran by the individual states", the states/provinces/territories of those countries have absolutely no governing bodies for professional hockey. Each league is run by the league itself, although they may be affiliated with one another; CHL covers the OHL/WHL/QMJHL, NHLPA has contracts with the AHL and ECHL.) Yosemiter (talk) 02:47, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Are you really trying to argue that for example the Canadian Hockey League is not a Canadian organisation? Ikea is not affiliated with the Swedish government but it's still Swedish. Can't see why the only solution is just to delete and not improve WP:AFDISNOTCLEANUP. Abcmaxx (talk) 08:16, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Except your IKEA example reveals the problem very well; are they Swedish or are they Dutch? What makes them either?  The list has some good content, but is tied together by assumptions of nationality that many of the organizations do not profess.18abruce (talk) 12:50, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that the presumption of this article is that the leagues are regulated by national governing bodies (highlighted in my Delete comment), and in fact the Canadian Hockey League is NOT regulated by Hockey Canada, the recognized national governing body for hockey in Canada: Hockey Canada controls a majority of ice hockey in Canada. There are some notable exceptions, such as the Canadian Hockey League and U Sports (formerly known as Canadian Interuniversity Sport) who partner with Hockey Canada, but are not members, as well as any of Canada's professional hockey clubs. Yosemiter (talk) 13:28, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * And keep in mind the dangers of a name meaning more than its name; The New York Americans played in the Canadian division in the NHL. The CHL does not even identify itself as Canadian but as the, "world’s largest development hockey league with 52 Canadian and eight American teams" (from their website).  Who's to say what the future is for them?18abruce (talk) 13:46, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * And the so-called American Hockey League was created from a merger of the Canadian-American Hockey League and International Hockey League, both using words for multinational organizations. Also the fact that "American" can mean anywhere in the Americas, but is often a name for those from the US. Words are just words, sources are needed to prove national identification, which per these articles' original intent, was the recognized national governing bodies. Yosemiter (talk) 14:24, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * There's nothing stopping any of you improving the article. Ikea is 100 per cent Swedish, why would it be Dutch? Nonsensical reasoning Abcmaxx (talk) 19:18, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * First, because IKEA's headquartered in Leiden, Netherlands. Second, "improving" the article would be deleting anything unverifiable as a national league, which would be over half the article. At which point we would then need to have the article meet WP:GNG via the standards described in WP:LISTN: a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list. Would you care to provide any independent sources for articles discussing hockey teams playing in another nation's national league? Yosemiter (talk) 19:41, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The difficulty with sourcing this list as compared to football: football has multinational organizations which regulate international competitions. It's fairly easy to source a list of teams in football competitions that aren't part of the country the league is in, since each country has a league "assigned" by the governing body for international play, making this an easy determination. Hockey has international competitions in a different way in Europe, but the NHL is a perfect example: is the league Canadian or American? It's both, really. SportingFlyer (talk) 21:23, 23 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete This is completely original research and synthesis. I would also recommend the other sports be removed from the other page and it be moved back to its original name as being a list of football leagues. -DJSasso (talk) 15:01, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:CANTBEBOTHERED to improve article? Abcmaxx (talk) 19:18, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
 * @User:Abcmaxx, you're missing the point... it fails WP:LISTN for stand-alone lists, in such that the items have not been discussed as a group or set, by independent reliable sources. That means, there are no possible reliable resources that can improve the article, thus it should be deleted! Flibirigit (talk) 19:47, 23 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Has nothing to do with not being bothered. In order to be a list it has to be notable as a list. Sources have to talk about it the group as a whole. Have you found sources that talk about this subject as a group of teams? I don't see anything and I am sure there are none. -DJSasso (talk) 02:14, 24 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete - Much of the article is bogus, as the NHL is not merely a US league regardless of where its offices are located. Other than other explicitly US-Canada cross-border leagues the only sourced information here is the QMJHL, the material of which can go in a QMJHL article, and some teams in former USSR countries competing in Russia league, which hardly seems worthy of a standalone article. Rlendog (talk) 15:44, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Merge with List of sports clubs playing in the league of another country. Commentators wanting that article deleted should nominate it, not try and sneak it out in this AFD. OZOO (t) (c) 16:01, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure we were really using this AfD to delete the other page. But as a consequence of what happens here could easily affect there depending on how much of each page is considered original research (which most of us agree is fairly substantial). We are however suggesting to NOT delete the other page, but in fact roll it back to what it used to be about two years ago when it was originally known as List of association football clubs playing in the league of another country, a seemingly well sourced topic. Yosemiter (talk) 18:59, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Rolling back the "sports club" article back to being association football only, when there is already currently a List of association football clubs playing in the league of another country article, would effectively require the deletion of one of the two articles. Suggesting that as a consequence of this discussion, the sports club article would be rolled back, is a discussion of deletion. OZOO (t) (c) 20:12, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * So essentially keep List of association football clubs playing in the league of another country and delete List of sports clubs playing in the league of another country is what you are postulating; why would you revert the article to an already existing article if you're against non-football entries Abcmaxx (talk) 20:16, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * List of association football clubs playing in the league of another country was also only recently separated out from List of sports clubs playing in the league of another country last month. The roll back would be to preserve the edit history of the footy page, which goes back over a decade. I believe based on the result of this AfD, Talk:List of sports clubs playing in the league of another country would be where the next conversation would take place, which is also the reason I posted the notification of this AfD there last week. Yosemiter (talk) 20:21, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * You can merge page histories but if you're excluding lists of other sports then it should not be called that Abcmaxx (talk) 20:25, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Indeed, but at this point I feel this topic of discussion should move to Talk:List of sports clubs playing in the league of another country. (I was just pointing out that from December 2006 to May 2016 all the edit history was solely for football prior to your additions of other sports and then moving the page.) The topic here is whether or not this ice hockey list is original research or actually meets WP:LISTN. Yosemiter (talk) 20:32, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Merge into List of ice hockey leagues, it would circumvent definition issues surrounding "another country" as per the objections raised to the article in this form Abcmaxx (talk) 20:28, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The lack of references and notability of the information in this list means it is not suitable as this list, or even merged into any other list. Original research and synthesis does not belong anywhere on Wikipedia.Flibirigit (talk) 20:37, 28 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete - another distinction between this and the football articles is that FIFA sanctions a "national league" in each of its member states while the IIHF does not. That is, in football we can identify a league for each country and easily list its teams based abroad. In hockey, though, there's no way of determining which country a given league "belongs" to, or if the concept of "national league" even exists with a consistent definition. Madg2011 (talk) 00:55, 1 March 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.