Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ice hockey players who died young


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete. Mackensen (talk) 14:33, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

List of ice hockey players who died young

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

This list is possibly infinite, and could be better used as a category, if anything. No notability behind hockey players dying, and what is even considered "young"? Ksy92003 (talk)  17:16, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hockey-related deletions.   —Djsasso 19:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. This could indeed become an indiscriminate list.  "Young" doesn't have a definition (this article has defined it at 45) and the oldest person on this particular list is 44.  I personally don't consider that young, but young for dying.  If that makes sense.  However, the only inkling of notability I find is the possibility that hockey players may die younger, on average, than the average person due to the physical strain on the body or something.  Either way, I don't think this list is encyclopedic.  Useight 17:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. Might not be well written at the moment so could use some fix ups but it is a notable list. --Djsasso 18:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete There's nothing about hockey players dying young that is notable. If they died young because of playing hockey, that might be different. This is closer to "Hockey Players With Hot Wives". MarkBul 18:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I believe the purpose is listing players who died during their career through car accidents etc and there is at least two listed though a quick skim who died actually in a game or due to an injury in a game. --Djsasso 19:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep It's not indiscriminate information, since there is ample info in there to discriminate between each person. A category, as suggested by nominator, would be indiscriminate information.  Why does everyone want to "categorize" everything anyway?  I can confirm that the list is not "possibly infinite".  I have looked at it again, and ruled out that possibility, verifying that it ends with the phrase "Categories: Articles for deletion | Lists of people by age"  Mandsford 19:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Unencylopedic list of extremely minimal use and the oppourtunity for the article to become hugely indescriminate. Many sportsmen die young, as their profession often provides them with a lifestyle they cannot physically sustain (e.g. drugs, fast car accidents and lifestyle related injury), listing it is of limited use to anyone. If it were a list of people who died while actually playing professional hockey (old or young) that wouldn't be so bad, but still, who would want that info? WikipedianProlific(Talk) 20:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply: It would also be a pretty damn short list; in the history of North American major senior play, Bill Masterton and Owen McCourt are the only players to have died from on-ice injuries.   RGTraynor  17:27, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep Could use some work but I do not see why it should be deleted. It fulfills all the requirements for a list and covers an interesting topic. On the question of what is young I'd have to say that 45 is relatively young age for a man to die in the western world. And remember that Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. --Krm500 20:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete: Per WP:NOT.  This not only enshrines the arbitrary choices of the editor ("professional" and "under 45"), those choices are unevenly applied: there are many non-professional players on that list, including many amateur players of the early days of the sport, non-pros such as Hobey Baker, and Soviet-era amateur Russians.  That the list is pretty and well-formatted is nice, but there is nothing in policy guaranteeing inclusion on that basis.    RGTraynor  01:02, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong delete. Arbitrary cut-off point, why not 40, or 50? Apparent original research by the article's creator, who has decided that 45 is "young", implying that 46 isn't young (in this context). None of the keep !voters have addressed the obvious problems with this list. Anyone else who thinks this list should be kept should look at Categories for discussion/Log/2007 March 5, where there was a strong consensus to delete a similarly arbitrary category. Crazysuit 01:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete: Quite an arbitrary set of people with which to populate a list. - Special-T 02:54, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per RGTraynor. This seems to define an indiscriminate list to me. Young is too arbitrary. We really need to get a better list guideline going. I think User:Moonriddengirl has a discussion going here on how to reform the criteria. Please chime in (Since we seem to be getting a lot of AfD's with inconsistent results). -- B figura  (talk) 03:57, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete What is this article trying to prove? Are hockey players more likely die from off-ice incidents?   Can I make an article for hockey players who died at 46? Corpx 05:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong delete for lack of any possible objective inclusion criterion. There is no objective definition of "young" so by default the list is OR and POV. Otto4711 12:57, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. I agree mostly with Krm100.  However, to get rid of the subjectivity of "young", I suggest renaming the article to List of ice hockey players who have died during their playing career (compare: List of sportspeople who have died during their playing career), and altering the list to only include the players that were not already retired when they died.  (Side comment: There is also a List of people who died young.) --Idont Havaname (Talk) 21:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment That is a very good idea. --Djsasso 21:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply: That would take away much of my objection, I admit.   RGTraynor  21:51, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep and Rename list per Idont Havaname's suggestion. -Pparazorback 04:33, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename and Keep per Idont Havaname. This suggestion addresses the major concerns.  -- JamesTeterenko 02:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 'Strong keep, As the article's creator I will say my piece.
 * 1) First of all, the age is not arbitrary, Tim Horton, the oldest player to die during his career, was 44 and still playing for the Buffalo Sabres when he was killed in a car accident, so if your still young enough to play in the National Hockey League, I'm pretty sure that your still young enough to be called "young". If the oldest player was 42... it would have been listed as under 43, etc. you get my point. So its not like I'm using original research here.
 * 2) This article is not without precedent, the List of people who died young article exists (among with many other similar topical articles), and has passed deletion, so this is more in a way subletting that lists information, otherwise that list will become too enormous to read (imaging joining all the players mentioned in this article with that one, AND every other sortable topic)
 * 3) To those who say this should be categorized, it was categorized before under Category:National Hockey League players who died during their careers and THAT was deleted, without me even knowing I might add. So categorization doesn't seem to be an option here.
 * 4) I'm not opposed to changing it to ice hockey players who died during their careers, but their might be a problem with that in that it could potentially be subject to more WP:POV and original research than necessary.
 * 5) And finally, yes, for ice hockey fans this is indeed an article of interest, especially when an NHL player dies at a young age, as unfortunate as it is. Its interesting and informative, I don't see where these original research accusations are coming from, just because there is no list anywhere else (that I could find) of this, isn't just cause for it not being on Wikipedia. That's the reason Wikipedia is here. All the information here can be sourced. Yes it isn't written in the best manner, but its quite a long list and merely typing it in and gathering all the information together took days, so I didn't really have the drive to write it in better.  Croat Canuck   Say hello   or just talk  20:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment. Tightening up the entry criteria by renaming it List of NHL careers interrupted by death would be preferable. Otherwise, this list gets players like  Brian Spencer who was shot in a bad drug deal 9 years after his career ended. Canuckle 21:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

DGG (talk) 17:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I am reluctant to comment on an article in this subject area, but it would seem that a list of people who died young, limited to a profession or otherwise, is exactly the sort of indiscriminate and irrelevant loose association that should not be in WP. On the other hand, if the point of this is some specific association between the sport and the possibly high proportion of early deaths, then I can see an article on Early deaths in ice hockey discussing the phenomenon and including a list of some or all of the people.
 * Comment: There isn't a specific association. But there are numerous sourced examples regarding reflection of individuals 'cut down in their prime' as it were. "The short, remarkable life of Bill Barilko ended in tragedy just weeks after he became a team's hero." Legends of Hockey being but one example or as The Hip put it: "Bill Barilko disappeared that summer, he was on a fishing trip. The last goal he ever scored won the Leafs the Cup. They didn't win another until 1962the year he was discovered." Canuckle 22:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly, at the very least the players who died during their careers should be listed. To say that it is a loose association at best is speaking from a limited knowledge of the history of the game. This article will be of most importance the next time a tragedy in ice hockey occurs, when people are looking for similar occurrences. Croat Canuck   Say hello   or just talk  22:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.