Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of journalists killed in Russia (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was Keep, certainly no clear consensus to delete. NawlinWiki 14:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

List of journalists killed in Russia
AfDs for this article: 
 * – (View AfD) (View log)

The only list of it's kind. We don't have List of journalists by places they were killed, so this list clearly has agenda-oriented issues and in so has WP:NPOV and, given many are not that notable, WP:NOT issues. Bulldog123 23:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete Wikipedia is not the place to document/index deaths of non-notable people.  How is this different than a soldier who died fighting a war or a police officer who died in the line of duty?  Corpx 00:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Some of the listees are notable, but this isn't simply a List of journalists killed 'on duty', which could pass off as ok. This is clearly meant to sport some type of agenda. Especially considering Russia isn't, nor ever was, a war-zone such as Iraq is today. It's bordering on a comment on civil liberties. Bulldog123 01:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There are lots of people killed "on duty" (soldiers, cops, construction workers? and at pretty much any job with risk involved). I dont think journalists should be any different Corpx 02:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep Well there is already a space for men killed in action in the forces/Army. I think these guys should be seen too, unless wiki is too snoby... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.8.61 (talk • contribs)
 * Where? Corpx 02:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep The killing of journalists in Russia during the Putin regime is actually pretty notable, since it has a chilling effect on freedom of the press. To answer Corpx, the reason why journalists are "different" is because they are targetted specifically, by name, for what they have written.  Yes, the deaths of soliders and police officers are no less tragic.  Generally, however, an individual policeman or soldier is not singled out for a hit or a premeditated murder.  American journalists haven't been the target of murder on their home turf (one exception was Don Bolles, although they're at high risk overseas.  Mandsford 03:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * List of murdered journalists or "killed journalists"...yes that's notable. But this is bordering on social commentary. I really don't think Journalists being killed in Russia would make a good article. Bulldog123 03:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no way to know why somebody was killed for unless a group takes responsibility for the action.  Very very few of these entries have solid motive listed.  I dont think its our place, as an encyclopedia, to infer motives behind these actions.Corpx 04:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete - Indescriminate list, seems POV-ish. If someone wanted to make a sourced article about notable journalists killed in Russia, that would be good. But, this is just an indiscriminate list that appears biased towards making the Putin government look bad, as Mandsford said. While it may be true that the Putin government targets journalists, a list does nothing to substantiate that claim at all. A seperate article with detailed reliable sources to back up the claim would be worthwhile. This list is neither. -- Kesh 04:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree, 1000000% Bulldog123 07:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * strong keep this list was unanimously kept just three months ago. You don't have a valid reason to delete this, and certainly nothing that was not presented last time.  "Overlistification" is an essay that you wrote and of which you are the lone supporter, so please stop citing it as if it's some sort of policy or guideline. --JayHenry 04:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment on the article, not on the nominator. Given it's not being "unanimously kept" right now, it's obvious consensus can change, so let's not resort to WP:POINT reasonings. And it would have taken you less time to conclude that an agenda-oriented list is a violation of policies WP:NPOV and WP:NOT than to write this complaint. To address your other complaints, I responded on the proposal talk page. Thanks. Bulldog123 06:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep the nom is correct in that we don't have articles of where journalists are killed, but we do have at least one category about coverage Category:Journalists killed while covering the Vietnam War. I think that a valid article can be sustained about the dangers of journalism in Russia as in various (other) war zones. And a list of those killed can be appropriately sourced. Carlossuarez46 06:46, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * People are expected to be killed in war. But why should it be noted that people of a certain occupation are being killed in a sovereign nation? It makes me wonder how people would take List of foreign journalists killed in the United States, as certainly, there will be some. Bulldog123 06:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * In response to that, the killing of journalists isn't something spread uniformly across the world, nor does it go on constantly. In certain places and at certain times, journalists are at a higher risk for being murdered.  At the moment, it happens more often in Russia.  Back in the 1980s, Lebanon was the place.  If foreign journalists were being shot in the United States, it would definitely be notable.   Bear in mind also that, unlike soldiers or policemen, the reporters don't wear uniforms that identify their status.  Unlike soldiers or policemen, reporters are usually unarmed, and specific individuals are usually selected as targets.  Killing journalists is usually done for two reasons... to shut them up, and to deter others from writing somethin unfavorable.  Mandsford 12:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Isnt that the motive of any politically motivated homicide? To shut them up and to deter others from doing the same?  Also would like to say that motive is not established for most of these cases, and we shouldnt be inferring it.  Corpx 17:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep meets WP:LIST criteria, not inherently POV and would welcome articles/lists on journalists killed in other countries around the world where a significant number have been killed. change to where it is a problem. Davewild 07:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, making lists based on "numbers" (in response to comment "where a significant number have been killed") is original research in disguise. There's no difference between that and making a List of African-American criminals. There's a lot so we better make a list. Bulldog123 17:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep satisfies the criteria for WP:LIST. Lugnuts 08:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. The nominator's rationale is a non-sequitur. Just because there aren't other lists like it doesn't mean there shouldn't be. After all, articles don't just spontaneously appear in nice neat groups - they're written one by one. --Hemlock Martinis 08:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep as fitting criteria in WP:LIST. If there is any purpose to having an ongoing updatable encyclopedia it is precisely topics like this. Whether the number of journalists killed makes a comment on human rights is obviously in the eye of the beholder. We probably should have more such articles, not just about Russia. --Dhartung | Talk 08:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We dont know if these guys were killed just for their journalistic actions.  Motive is not established for the vast majority of this list.  Corpx 17:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete. (1) Russia exists for centuries and being journalist and getting killed did not started during 2000s. (2) WP is not memorial. (3) There's nothing special with journalist being killed, why not to have lists of killed children, pregnant women or businessmen? These for sure gathered enough of press coverage. Pavel Vozenilek 15:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't particularly like journalists in America either, but if 10 or more reporters were getting killed each year, it would be cause for alarm. Maybe killing of journalists is routine over in Russia (I'm surprised if it ever was), but I think this is different than all the newsmen who must have been arrested and executed during the Stalin regime.  Mandsford 22:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * " Maybe killing of journalists is routine over in Russia" I think, in those words, you've pretty much proven why this list shouldn't exist. Bulldog123 23:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Have I really? If murder becomes part of a "routine", I think it's noteworthy.  We just have different views.  Mandsford 01:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There is not much at all that solidly says these people were killed because they were jounalists. From an encyclopedia standpoint, these are people who were killed, who also happened to be journalists.  Corpx 01:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep My mind boggles at the nominator's reasons: " agenda-oriented issues"? You mean concern/interest in the large number of journalists murdered in Russia just can't be a legitimate interest in a topic important in understanding modern Russia? I don't know if there's an article called "Alcoholism in Russia" but just because it might reflect badly on Russia we shouldn't have it in Wikipedia? Killing journalists happens to be a salient topic in the understanding of Russia today. And where does NPOV enter into it? It's a list, for crying out loud. Also, not every item in a list needs to be notable. By the way, I don't know where to find it in the rules, but somewhere it says that Wikipedia is not, cannot be and does not have to be consistent in everything. Even though a lot of journalists get killed in Mexico and elsewhere in Latin America, just because there isn't a list or article on it is irrelevant as to whether or not this list should exist. We'd never get an edit in Wikipedia if we had to make sure everything was treated the same way everywhere. Noroton 23:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletions.   -- John Vandenberg 23:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * List of Russian alcoholics won't pass notability and neither will Killing of journalists in Russia. And making a list because of someone's "concern" for something IS agenda-oriented, whether positive or negative in nature. Bulldog123 23:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No one suggested a List of Russian Alcoholics, as you well know. there is not a shadow of a doubt that there have been numerous news articles on the abundance of killings of Russian journalists as you also well know. And that meets WP:Notability standards, as you also well know. There are two agendas in conflict here: the agenda to cover encyclopedic subjects fairly and without bias and the agenda of protecting certain subjects from notice. Noroton 02:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep The Categorization of people guideline allows for intersections of occupation and residence categories such as "Journalists" & "Russian". I don't think intersecting that with the "Murdered" category will make the sub-category non-notable.  I can't find a matching example in Overcategorization. ilgiz 01:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. First, this article has been already discussed and decision was speedy keep. Second, nominator's argument was that "We don't have List of journalists by places they were killed". This argument is not new (see previous AfD discussion). In fact, we should make lists of journalists killed in many countries including Iraq. Nothing in WP official policies prevents that. At least 15 journalists killed in Russia are notable - they have articles in WP. Most important, the killing of journalists in Russia is a notable phenomenon. As such it desrves a WP article. Biophys 03:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It was speedy kept last time because nobody else objected to it. Corpx 03:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment I've made numerous additions to the article, adding sources. This article now has references to multiple, independent, reliable sources on the subject of killed Russian journalists, and there are plenty of sources cited with substantial coverage of the subject. There article meets WP:Notability concerns. Noroton 03:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep Well sourced article on a topic which has received international press coverage. Nick mallory 04:04, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There is already an article about media freedom in Russia. Imprisonment of Paris Hilton also received international press coverage, but it doesn't mean it should have its own article. DVoit 17:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well that's Wikipedia's whole notability criteria chucked out the window then. Let's delete all the articles which are deemed notable because they're the subject of multiple, credible, independent sources and the start the encyclopedia again on the basis of what you like or don't like shall we?  Nice red hammer and sickle map on your 'I was born in the Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic' themed user page by the way.  Nick mallory 10:50, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep The number of journalists that may have been killed for political reasons justifies an article.--Victor falk 10:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Then maybe it should list only those journalists and not everyone who died (e.g. Vlad Kidanov wrote about problems of young people). DVoit 16:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete (1) I dont see any point in an article which states only "journalists who have been recently killed in Russia", but ignores journalists killed 10 years ago. (2) In past 3 years a lot of journalists were killed in Mexico, but there is no aticle about it. (3) I can understand if  this article listed journalists who were killed "in the line of duty" (17 since 2000 according to the CPJ), but listing every single death is ridicules. (4) Wikipedia is not the place for original research: this article  lists some journalists as killed ,although there is no proof that they actually were (e.g. Ivan Safronov, Vyacheslav Plotnikov). I think the article should be deleted or fully rewritten. DVoit 16:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) The killing of journalists is notable within the context of the current political situation in Russia, not per se.
 * 2) Non sequitur. See Hemlock Martinis' comment above.
 * 3) OK, only journalists that died during working hours may be listed.
 * 4) Tag them with or.
 * --Victor falk 06:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Strong keep per user:Hemlock MartinisTaprobanus 17:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep, partly on the basis of a new ref .from NY Review of Books, just added, which is a suitably objective source for the concept.
 * Keep per Noroton & Biophys. This article was kept in an AFD less than 3 months ago, and nothing has changed since then.  The arguments cited in that AFD are just as valid now as they were then.  As far as I can see, the only difference is that now there are a number of deletionists with an agenda against list articles. JulesH 07:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.