Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of landlocked U.S. states


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.  Sandstein  08:59, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

List of landlocked U.S. states

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This article is being nominated for deletion because it generally lacks any reliable references, it uses a categorization system (singly, doubly?) that is confusing, and doesn't provide the reader with any usable information. The inherent problem with this list article is that it does not provide context as to what exactly is a landlocked U.S. state and provide backing as to what is or is not a landlocked state with a reference. See also: Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_October_31, category up for deletion. Randomeditor1000 (talk) 16:58, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete. The article is supported by but a single source, of questionable reliability (one “Victor Kiprop”, at worldatlas.com).  An online search turns up no official, or for that matter any, RS that adopts or expands on the concept of “landlocked U.S. states”.  In addition to the sourcing / OR problem, the demarcations set forth in the article are contradicted by both common sense and reliably-sourced facts:  For example, the Great Lakes are deemed to be “landlocked” yet they are open to ocean-going vessels by way of the St. Lawrence Seaway, and such vessels routinely transport goods in and out of the freshwater ports of the Great Lakes.  To describe states such as Minnesota - or Michigan, which is literally surrounded by water - as “landlocked” simply because they don’t border on salt water, is nonsensical.  JohnInDC (talk) 17:43, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:02, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:02, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:02, 31 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete—per above, this concept just isn't apparently supported in sources.  Imzadi 1979  →   18:22, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete. WP:NOTTRIVIA and lacks reliable sources to make it a notable topic. Ajf773 (talk) 18:56, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep or weak delete: Either reliable sources need to be found, and the page revamped to be more easily understood, or possibly deleted. However, I don't want it deleted. Morriswa (Charlotte Allison) (talk) 23:41, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep under the contingency that more reliable sources are found.--AirportExpert (talk) 00:19, 2 November 2018 (UTC)AirportExpert
 * Keep - this list is making an interesting contribution to Wikipedia's coverage of geography of the United States. Vorbee (talk) 08:38, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:IDONTCARE. Ajf773 (talk) 19:08, 2 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete Lacks reliable sources. And please people, "It think this is interesting, so we should keep it" is not a valid keep reason. Everything is here because someone thought it interesting FOARP (talk) 15:23, 3 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete The article does not provide reliable sources, sorry! Alex-h (talk) 13:35, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment Sourcing is sparse online, but I added a reference to the article. Don't care which way this one goes. SportingFlyer  talk  10:47, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep per RoySmith. For instance, here's Arizona: SportingFlyer  talk  01:23, 10 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete - Geography cruft. Carrite (talk) 17:19, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete as cruft. This is not a notable concept as 56% of states are included. I can't even imagine how anyone would find that interesting but that doesn't matter because it is not notable. Dom from Paris (talk) 19:17, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep. Doubly landlocked isn't a confusing category, it's a geographical term that applies to nations or states that are two or more territories away from an ocean or major body of water, whereas nations such as Liechtenstein and Uzbekistan fit that term. Per WP:PRESERVE, I believe I can fix the article to avoid a deletion and solve the problems in this article. Landlocked states is an important category that fits properly into several U.S. geography categories. The category is notable because a quick google search turns up several results, many of which I will add to this article. After I fix this up, I would like to see a relist per WP:HEY. Redditaddict69 (talk) (contribs)  14:08, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I was unable to find any meaningful sourcing for this concept, as applied to US States, other than that one Worldatlas.com article. If you can find other RSs, please add them.  But take care that when you are adding sources, you are not simply adding in websites that mirror or expressly derive from this very article.  I've just removed a Revolvy.com source that suffered that defect.  Thanks.  JohnInDC (talk) 16:09, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. www.worldatlas.com seems like a sufficiently reliable source.  And, certainly, you can verify each individual state, for example, Utah.  -- RoySmith (talk) 01:20, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment - A single source, of marginal quality, bolstered by synthetically cobbling together passing references one-by-one from (it would appear) up to 50 other unrelated sources, doesn't meet WP:GNG. The only source for this compilation is a one-off article, which has garnered no other amplification, corroboration or commentary.  And, as commenters above have noted, the underlying concept of "landlocked", which is descriptive, politically determinative and meaningful when applied to nations themselves (not to mention abundantly sourced, e.g., NY Times, The Economist, The World Bank, United Nations) - is trivial when applied to political subdivisions within a nation.  JohnInDC (talk) 03:43, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in reliable sources. The subject passes Notability, which says, "One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list." I will show below that "landlocked U.S. states" has been treated as a "a group or set by independent reliable sources". Sources   The article notes: "Doubly landlocked states refer to the states that have to cross the boundaries of two other states to access the nearest gulf, bay, sea, or ocean. Of the fifty states of the United States, ten are doubly landlocked, 17 states and DC are singly landlocked, while Nebraska is the only triply landlocked state."  The book notes: "A state is considered landlocked if it is not bordered on any side by a ... and body of water (except rivers). Eleven states—Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, South Dakota, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming—qualify as doubly landlocked, which means they are surrounded by landlocked states. The emphasis is on “land.” But Nebraska is the only state that can claim to be trebly landlocked, which means all the states surrounding it (Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, South Dakota, and Wyoming) are doubly landlocked."  The book notes: "In North America, some of the best examples of fossilized plesiosaurs have been discovered in an area that was once a large inland sea (the Western Interior Seal stretching from the Arctic to the Gulf of Mexico and encompassing the now landlocked states of Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, and the Dakotas as well as parts of Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Minnesota, and Iowa."</li> <li> The article notes: "BLM lands are located overwhelmingly west of the Mississippi, including much of the arid, landlocked states of Arizona, Nevada, and Utah, and very little of the coastal states of California, Oregon, and Washington."</li> <li> The book notes: "However, it is notable that California, Rhode Island, and Texas- -all states which are located on maior bodies of water—had low densities, while the landlocked states of Arkansas, Idaho, Kansas, and Mississippi were far above the national average of 39.7 boats per 1,000 residents."</li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow the subject to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 11:02, 10 November 2018 (UTC) </li></ul>

<ul><li>Comment: Here are sources that discuss landlocked US states (provided to show that "landlocked US states" is a widely used term):<ol> <li> The book notes: "Nebraska Background: In 1931 the governor of Nebraska, Charles Bryan, left the state for a couple of weeks on vacation. While he was gone the lieutenant governor, Ted W. Metcalfe, was in charge. Metcalfe, a Democrat, was frustrated that Bryan, a Republican, had not left much for him to do, and Metcalfe's friends were bugging him for appointments to state government positions. Why not kill two birds with one stone? Metcalfe invented the Great Navy of the State of Nebraska (a play on the fact that Nebraska is the only triply landlocked state in the Union, with at least three states between it and the ocean in any direction), and commissioned two dozen of his friends as admirals. Since then, Metcalfe's little jokes has gone on to become the highest honor a governor—aka the 'Chief Admiral'—can bestow."</li> <li> The article notes: "“The commissioning of the USS Omaha is a fitting tribute to Omaha’s history and people,” said Sen. Ben Sasse, R-Neb., in a statement. “Even if we’re the only triply landlocked state, whenever the USS Omaha is called to defend America, the crew should know that grateful Nebraskans are behind them.”" This article is about Ben Sasse's remarks about the launching of USS Omaha.</li> <li> The article notes: "Admiralships to the Nebraska Navy are a lighthearted award often granted to people who are retiring, changing jobs, or have reached a milestone in their lives. The honor is a joking reference to the fact that Nebraska is the nation's only triply landlocked state and has no navy or seas to defend. Admiralships are granted at the governor's discretion and can only be given when the nominee or nominator is a Nebraska resident."</li> <li> The article notes: "Living along the coasts tends to come with higher living costs, so those looking to save money in retirement should consider moving to a landlocked state."</li> <li> The article notes: "Even landlocked states such as Arizona and Wyoming could see significant increases in population because of coastal migration by 2100, and may be unprepared to handle the surge, said the analysis from a University of Georgia researcher. ... While a movement of residents from low-lying coastal regions to adjacent inland communities will likely occur, Hauer said that according to his model, even landlocked states such as Nevada, Arizona and Wyoming will see an influx."</li> <li> The book notes: "Deep in America's heartland, the landlocked state of Iowa has been a central player in American agriculture since shortly after the Louisiana Purchase."</li> <li> The article notes: "Hawkeye, a hard-shelled crab representing the landlocked state of Iowa, skittered past 22 competitors to win the 24th Governor's Cup race today by a claw."</li> <li> The article notes: "In the landlocked state of Iowa, there aren't many options when it comes to cooling off in the summertime. Unless you're lucky enough to have a swimming pool in your backyard."</li> <li> The book notes: "At the age of twenty-two, Rachel Carson, who had never been more than sixteen miles from her home, left the landlocked state of Pennsylvania to see the ocean that she had dreamt about for most of her life."</li> <li> The book notes: "It was a Navy posting in the decidedly landlocked state of Idaho that introduced Captain Ed Nicholson to fly fishing."</li> <li> The book notes: "Moving inland from the vast ocean to the Susquehanna river, Moore withdraws to the landlocked state of Pennsylvania, where both she and Stevens grew up ..."</li> <li> The article notes: "Planning a cruise but want to go somewhere different? Forget Antarctica, Libya, or the island of St Helena, how about booking a cruise to Idaho? Yes, Idaho, as in the landlocked state of Idaho."</li> <li> The article notes: "When you think about the landlocked state of Arizona, the beach really doesn’t come to mind, does it?"</li> <li> The article notes: "But, to be the bigger lie in a series of falsehood was the geographical impossibility of ocean-front property in the landlocked state of Arizona."</li> <li> The book notes: "In 1934, the landlocked state of Arizona commissioned a navy (it consisted of one ferryboat) and sent its state militia to stop a dam and diversion project on the Colorado River."</li> <li> The article notes: "In the landlocked state of Arizona, far removed from the Atlantic or the Pacific oceans, residents fretted over the prospect of trouble from another direction. 'We've got the Mexican border to worry about,' one said."</li> <li> The book notes: "One can still find fossils of sharks and clams in the center of the present-day landlocked states of Nebraska and Kansas."</li> </ol>Cunard (talk) 11:02, 10 November 2018 (UTC)</li></ul>
 * I fretted above about synthesizing a list out of passing mentions from 50 unrelated sources, but it looks like the figure may be closer to 150. The concept is trivial, the mentions are trivial, and more sources to support synthesis doesn't make something reliably sourced!  The problem becomes even clearer when one contemplates how to meaningfully include these offhand mentions as actual refs in support of a comprehensive “List” article. JohnInDC (talk) 14:42, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. Thank you User:Cunard for the collection of sources, which is handy to have perhaps, but sourcing on non-controversial facts does not need to be extensive.  It cannot seriously be disputed whether a given state borders on an ocean or not;  excessive footnoting (all footnoting?) should be removed as a matter of editing.  This is a basic, gateway, child-accessible type article like those about flags and number of colors in them, which have also come up for deletion (and have been "Kept").  There is apparently some fundamental disagreement about what is encyclopedic.  In my opinion, these all are basic to allowing children and adults into understanding about our world.  Including learning about the encyclopedia works.  These are highly encyclopedic, even central.  No purpose is served by deleting such. --Doncram (talk) 19:30, 10 November 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.