Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of landmarks destroyed by Communist run governments (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Ideological turf wars aside, I cannot help but wonder at AfD comments that would keep articles that are completely unsourced.  Sandstein  19:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

List of landmarks destroyed by Communist run governments
AfDs for this article: 
 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Blatant POV and clear soapboxing article. I am not telling these landmarks were not destroyed, yes these were destroyed but this do not warrant a separate article. This is not encyclopedic article. Yes it is true that Stalin destroyed numerous Churches, but not all those Churches are notable. This article is a list, if this is a list, it should include all the notable landmarks which were destroyed. This article is inappropriate because landmarks were destroyed by Capitalist, monarchist countries also. Numerous churches were destroyed by Muslim countries, numerous mosques were destroyed by Christian-majority nations, numerous templates were destroyed by Muslim majority nations. In this way other articles can be created like List of landmarks destroyed by Capitalist run governments, List of landmarks destroyed by pro-America governments, List of landmarks destroyed by the Western countries, List of Churches destroyed by Muslim countries, List of mosques destroyed by Christians etc. etc. It is POV to single out communism when numerous landmarks were destroyed by non-communist and religious governments. If this article stays, then Wikipedia is simply an anti-Communist hate site and propaganda machinery.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 06:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Also 1.there is no source to prove that the destruction of these landmarks were sponsored by the government, not by some lynch mob and 2. these landmarks were destroyed to establish communism, not for any other reason.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 10:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete indiscriminate collection of information. No suggestion in title/article that the buildings were all destroyed for ideological reasons, much less common ideological reasons, even supposing a "common" ideology existed in Russia, Cambodia and Cuba. -- Relata refero (disp.) 08:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. --Kleinzach (talk) 09:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Please delete that as an attack page. That also might be libelous. Alexius08 is welcome to talk about his contributions. 10:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Carryout the move recommended by the last AfD and work on including notable landmarks destroyed by non-communists. Jasynnash2 (talk) 10:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom, and due to total absence of WP:RS. I had a quick look at the GDR section of the list, and of the four places in the GDR that are on the list and have articles, it seems highly contentious whether they were "destroyed by a Communist run government". Three were heavily damaged by allied bombing, and the other was apparently accidentally burnt down by drunken Russian soldiers. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 14:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per everyone else. POV and pointless. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 15:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. This is a very interesting list. The list of landmarks destroyed in Russia seems to be correct. Needs some sourcing though.Biophys (talk) 18:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Do what Jasynnash2 said --Pwnage8 (talk) 19:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - Blatant POV bordering on a politically-motivated attack page. People have been invading each other and knocking down each others structures for eons, there's no need of a memorial page for all of them, nor for these. Each monument seems to already have its own article,. that is enough. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 21:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. The sole purpose of this list is to say how "really really bad communism was". That's not encyclopedic. Wikipedia is not a forum to push any POV. Delete. Begone. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) how "really really bad communism was". 22:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep, it's an interesting list, and brings together a large number of related incidents that would otherwise be hard to locate. Cultural destruction is an important subject. The only problem with it is that in its present state it is probably not comprehensive enough to be completely un-POV: it is only as comprehensive as the number of Wikipedia articles it can link to. I can't see how the above comment by AlasdairGreen27 can be serious. The article is mostly a list, it doesn't say anything much beyond that - if a list of destroyed monuments destroyed by Soviet Russia and its puppet states indicates something negative about Soviet Russia and its puppet states, then maybe they should have thought about that before destroying the monuments! Are we going to start removing certain lists about Nazi Germany because they show how really bad Nazi Germany was?
 * Additional Comment. The deletion proposer says that this list would be similar to a list of landmarks destroyed by Capitalist run governments, or pro-America governments, or Western countries, or Muslim countries or a list of mosques destroyed by Christians. All of these are spurious comparisons. None of them would be clearly defined bodies acting as a single unit. The Soviet system almost always tended to act like a single body, which is why a list that concerns only that body is valid, as valid for example as a list of battles fought by a particular country or power-block. Meowy  00:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: No this is not "spurious" comparison. Off course List of Churches destroyed by Muslim country or List of mosques destroyed by Christians is a single system because the entire Muslim world act as a single body under the same ideological umbrella. And all your above comments are original research. This article documents some indiscriminate collection because this do not mention if these were destroyed for ideological reason or not.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 03:30, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep as a record of a notable, quantifiable, well-documented phenomenon. Of course we need sources, and those should be fairly easy to find - many are even in the respective articles. As to the contention that "if this article stays, then Wikipedia is simply an anti-Communist hate site and propaganda machinery" - well, you know, in killing 100 million people, and in destroying these priceless treasures, and in perpetrating all manner of other horrors, Communism itself showed boundless amounts of hate, and vehement hatred of Communism is a perfectly acceptable emotion and even motivator for composing such articles. Naturally, however, that emotion should be kept out of the mainspace, as is the case here - these are simple facts documenting a small portion of what was wrought by one of the greatest plagues to strike humanity, not manifestations of "hate". Biruitorul (talk) 02:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: It is not only communism that killed people, it is Christianity or Islam which also killed numerous people. And what is your personal view on communism is not the world view on communism. As you personally hate communism, you will find numerous people who hate Islam and you will find numerous people who hate Christianity. As you personally view communism as "evil", you will find numerous people who view Islam as "evil", and you will find numerous people who view Christianity as "evil". Views on any particular ideology is always polarized. Wikipedia is not supposed to be written from the evil neocon view to spread New World Order and to establish the resident of the White House as the dictator of the world. You will find plenty of sources which are fanatically negative towards religion. This is not the place for debating over the ideology, this is the place for debating if this particular article is POV or not. And as several people have pointed out above, this is a blatant POV soapboxing and pointless article with indiscriminate inclusion criteria created to serve the author's POV.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 03:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know what the author's POV is. I do know that if done neutrally and with citations, such a list can illustrate one of the effects of Communism, and do so without trying to push a particular POV. (By the way, deaths caused by Christianity and even Islam are several orders of magnitude below what Communism killed.) Biruitorul (talk) 05:06, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You do not understand the author's POV is your personal matter (it is due to you probably share the author's POV or political agenda). Deaths by Christianity and Islam is not below if not higher. Off course to the monarchists, religion is the only truth in the world. But monarchist/capitalist view on communism is not the world view. The original issue is that this list is indiscriminate collection which do not specify if these landmarks were destroyed for ideological reason or not. This can be only done neutrally if any this kind of list includes landmark destruction by religious governments.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 05:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I'm sorry, I don't know what the author's POV is because none is apparent - please stop divining POVs and "political agendas" where there are none, and try some AGF for a change. And let's not be silly: "deaths by Christianity" and Islam too are, at a maximum, a couple of million, though probably less - in any case far less than Communism's 100 million. And please: your ad hominem attack regarding monarchism was uncalled for. The list is not indiscriminate, but I agree it could be refashioned to better emphasize the motivation for destruction. Finally, you're mixing apples and oranges: Communism is a political ideology while Christianity and Islam are religions. Feel free to create the latter articles, but there's no imperative to delete this one. Biruitorul (talk) 16:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You stop being silly. "Death by communism" is nothing compared to death by Christianity and Islam. You are saying death by Christianity and Islam is "a couple of millions"! Sigh. In one single period, Christianity took the lives of 75 million people . From 1347-50, Christians killed 18,600 Jews in 350 separate massacres. In 1347 only, 10,000 Jews brutally slaughtered by peace loving Christians. You will find plenty of sources about the crimes committed by Christians. Over 2,000,000 were killed in a single action by Christians . The number of people killed by the Islam is in hundreds of millions. In India alone, 80 million Hindus were killed by Muslim rulers during the Muslim rule. In 1399 Teimur killed 100,000 Hindus in a single day. And it is only killings by Christians and Islam. There comes the next question of slavery. Both Christianity and Islam turned millions of people into slave. After Turkish conquest of Hungary, Muslims decimated population there, took 3 million slaves, and castrated the men before selling them in the markets of North Africa. Death by Christians and Muslim and the atrocities committed by the Christians and Muslim is far more worse, if not worst. These religious monsters are a cancer to humanity, a threat to humanity and "deaths by communism" is nothing compared to the deaths by these religious monsters.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 07:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, thank you for a hearty laugh. You cannot blame the Black Death on the Catholic Church. You cannot blame the Vietnam War on the Catholic Church. You can blame the Gulag, the Katyn Massacre, the Great Leap Forward, Piteşti prison, the White Sea Canal, the Danube-Black Sea Canal, the Cultural Revolution, the Great Purges and much else on Communism. Now, yes, Christians have (lamentably) killed Jews and others, Muslims have killed Hindus, Christians and Jews, and so on. However: a) no evidence has been provided of mass Muslim slaughter of Hindus and b) killings motivated by religion (distinct, I may add, from killings perpetrated by followers of a particular religion) still dwarf those committed in the name of Communism. Biruitorul (talk) 16:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am again saying "death by communism" is nothing compared to the deaths by those religious monsters. You want evidence about mass killing of Hindus? Made me laugh. Goa Inquisition, Aurangzeb, in 1399 Teimur killed 100,000 Hindus in a single day. During the rule of Aurangzeb and many other Muslim rulers, numerous Hindu temples were destroyed in India. According to K.S. Lal, only between 1000 and 1525 CE, 60 to 80 million Hindus in India died as a result of Muslim invasion. As I have said above, in one single period, Christianity took the lives of 75 million people . You will not be able to sleep at night if you read the total number of deaths caused by Christianity. I have plenty of sources about those religiously motivated deaths by the religious monsters because they are easily available, but I hope AfD is the not right place for that.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 15:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Eh, the Goa Inquisition killed a couple hundred, and KS Lal's figures are far from authoritative or conclusive. Again: the Catholic Church is not responsible for the Black Death - that is the stuff of conspiracy theories. And one cannot simply wave away the Gulag, the Katyn Massacre, the Great Leap Forward, Piteşti prison, the White Sea Canal, the Danube-Black Sea Canal, the Cultural Revolution, the Great Purges and so much else as if they were mere details. The numbers do add up: 100 million, or at the very least quite near that figure. And the evidence is far more conclusive, and the link to Communism far more direct, than in the case of the Muslim invasion of India. Biruitorul (talk) 17:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions.   —Biruitorul (talk) 02:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions.   —Biruitorul (talk) 02:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Latvia-related deletion discussions.   —Biruitorul (talk) 02:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions.   —Biruitorul (talk) 02:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Estonia-related deletion discussions.   —Biruitorul (talk) 02:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hungary-related deletion discussions.   —Biruitorul (talk) 02:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: I have removed this AfD from list of Poland-related deletion discussions because this article is not related to Poland. —  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 03:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: There may be an article titled List of landmarks destroyed for political motivation which will include landmarks destroyed by Muslims countries or Christians which will be easy to find, but this kind of article which single out one particular ideology is POV.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 03:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Aside from the obvious pov issue, that article lacks reliable sources.— Chris!  c t 06:59, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete, soapboxing, not encyclopediatic article. --Soman (talk) 08:00, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Rename to List of landmarks destroyed for political reasons. Also, a List of landmarks destroyed for religious reasons should be created to include Buddhas of Bamyan and the like. bogdan (talk) 10:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.   -- Fabrictramp (talk) 23:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete, an excellent example of an article that violates WP:RS, WP:SOAP, WP:INDISCRIMINATE and WP:POV. Arsenikk (talk) 10:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Predictably, this list isn't complemented by a list of communist landmarks destroyed by non-communist governments, which has been at least as extensive. The Stadtschloss was demolished by the GDR, which built the Palast der Republik, which is in turn now being demolished so that the Stadtschloss can be rebuilt. This sort of destruction of landmarks is good subject matter for an article (in general or as individual cases), provided it's presented in context; to do it in the way this list is done misses the point entirely and serves only to promote an agenda. Everyking (talk) 03:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. Even the title of this is loaded, "landmarks destroyed" is a negatively loaded phrase. The entire premise of this article is that communist governments are cultural vandals, and I don't think these governments are worse than other governments in this regard. I have no sympathy with communist thinking, but this article is clearly in violation of NPOV. Sjakkalle (Check!)  07:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Then why not include other governments and rename the article as suggested above? Just because it might not have the best title is not a reason to delete an article. --Pwnage8 (talk) 17:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.