Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of last survivors of cultural events


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. On the face of it, a clear 'delete' consensus, but looking at the 'keep's, there was nothing there which was accepted by the 'delete' contingent. Citing another article that should be deleted if this one is deleted is not useful; the consensus is that this is an indiscriminate list, so the argument that it is not was against consensus. Further discussion could take place on the talk page of the userfied version - for a potential return to mainspace should a consensus on that ever be reached  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 01:37, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

List of last survivors of cultural events

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List based on vague trivial intersections of characteristics with no clear inclusion criteria. A "cultural event" is not defined and at present includes assorted films, sporting events, employment status and meeting celebrities. Violates WP:NOTDIR ("Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics"). Information can be true and notable yet unsuited to grouping. ŞůṜīΣĻ ¹98¹ Speak 08:58, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions.  ŞůṜīΣĻ ¹98¹ Speak 08:58, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Popular culture-related deletion discussions.  ŞůṜīΣĻ ¹98¹ Speak 08:58, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions.  ŞůṜīΣĻ ¹98¹ Speak 08:58, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I created this article to lighten the load on the List of last survivors of historical events list. Much of what is on there has been transferred from that list following a discussion on Talk:List of last survivors of historical events and has remained on there unchallenged for quite a long time. Mabalu (talk) 09:03, 24 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:INDISCRIMINATE, of which this is a perfect example. Nick-D (talk) 10:21, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment To be fair, the list is currently a simple transfer of information from one page to another. Any indiscrimination is due to the information that was gradually added into the Historical events list, building up to a substantial volume of bumph, without its being immediately removed/challenged. None of it has been added by me. Personally, I don't see the need for a lot of what's on the list right now (Employees/classmates - seriously?) but I know I would find it useful to know for example who the last surviving members of literary/art movements or groups were without trawling through the article on that movement/group and looking at all the artists's death dates to work out who died last. Mabalu (talk) 10:37, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Follow-up - On that note, I decided to further follow WP:BOLD and remove a lot of the names/films/events I didn't think had reason to be on there (e.g. "What Happened Last Night?" did not show film history notability, whilst obviously Casablanca/The Phantom of the Opera/The Great Train Robbery do). I am not touching Sports with a bargepole as I know nothing about it (but I'd think ought to list things like the last surviving medal winner from landmark Olympics (say the first Games of 1896, the 1936 Berlin Olympics etc.). Similarly, I haven't touched Music due to not knowing enough about it. Mabalu (talk) 11:14, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt your good intentions and the list is certainly well-ordered and comprehensive. My reason for calling the AFD is that I do not believe that the article could ever be anything other than a collection of tenuously-connected trivia. WP:LISTCRUFT is just an opinion piece, but I would say that points 3, 6, 8 and 10 apply to this article. ŞůṜīΣĻ ¹98¹ Speak 12:07, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I can see a case for art/literary movements etc - the last known surrealist, etc. Certainly that is something I would find incredibly useful, and have added three such instances to the Arts section as an example. (sorry, slipped on keyboard and submitted this prematurely). Mabalu (talk) 12:17, 24 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - Just a mishmash of indiscriminate trivia, ranging from Hypatia to Betty White. A notable factoid on their individual bios perhaps, but in reading down the list one entry has little to do do with the next, even within the same category. Tarc (talk) 20:05, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. The criterion is way too murky and broad. Just in films alone, we'd have to include every significant one that's old enough. No thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:09, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 20:38, 24 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep This article is well within WP standards, if not its (ideal) policies. If this is deleted then List of last survivors of historical events should be too, if it's policies we are following rather than our feelings about the polish and/or seriousness of the article. Borock (talk) 23:00, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Personally I agree that individual films/programmes shouldn't be on the list, although I can see the case where someone may want to know who "the last surviving leading man of 1930s Hollywood" for example, or indeed, who the last silent film actor was, or who the last Keystone Kop/Our Gang member was. But individual films/programmes? I wouldn't mind losing them from the list and in fact would happily wipe them. Essentially, I think that regardless of aspects of the content, the spirit of the article is in scope, and with proper criteria (something that is also needed for the Historical Survivors equivalent) set in place, it would be valid. I especially feel that the artists section would survive AFD if it wasn't lumped in with the other stuff. Mabalu (talk) 23:52, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. The trouble is everything from being a teammate of Babe Ruth's to participating in a rescue mission (what's that doing in sports BTW?) to being part of a band or art movement is included. What exactly constitutes a "cultural event"? Clarityfiend (talk) 06:18, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment/request - Completely agree. Which one is the rescue mission, BTW? As I said, I don't know anything about sports. I just moved everything from the Historical events list that wasn't a historical event or appeared not to be. Perhaps I should have sought more feedback/assessment and edited it more fully and developed the criteria. before creating the article itself, but I decided to be WP:BOLD and create it. Yes, it's a mish mash, but I don't think that's my fault. I would request that if the article is deleted, the current text be moved back to my userspace as I think there's solid material in there among the "mish mash" stuff that could form the basis of something more useful. Mabalu (talk) 21:06, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * That would be the 1925 serum run to Nome. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:29, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - This is essentially a mish mash of trivia. -- Whpq (talk) 17:36, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. Useful, encyclopaedic list. Not indiscriminate. Needs expansion, but no reason whatsoever to delete. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:11, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Why do you feel the inclusion criteria is not indiscriminate given that it's basically "X with characteristic Y associated with 1, 2, 3, to infinity"? As far as it being encyclopaedic, I would say the opposite - it's a violation of WP:SYNTH (therefore, the definition of unencyclopaedic) because it uses verifiable information to create an original connection between unrelated subjects. ŞůṜīΣĻ ¹98¹ Speak 10:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Just a WP:ITSUSEFUL vote. Discard. Tarc (talk) 13:40, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Before you urge others to "discard" votes you disagree with, I think you should probably read up on the status of essays such as the one you have just cited. That's right...they have none! Isn't it funny how editors are very knowledgeable about exactly which shortcut to use to quote such essays and much less knowledgeable about their status vis-a-vis Wikipedia policy! My opinion (for such it is, just like yours) stands. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Enquiry: Is User:Mabalu/List of last survivors of cultural events2 (alternative edit) any more acceptable? The title is obviously incorrect, but I've tried to clarify criteria, etc. Mabalu (talk) 11:35, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd say my nomination rationale would still apply. Example: "last surviving member of significant groups of people" - theoretically, any group of people with an article on Wikipedia is significant. There could be a case for it to be split up (e.g. "List of last survivors of artistic movements") but equally some would question the notability of listing individuals who happened to live longer than their colleagues. The existing war-related lists are fundamentally different as soldiers in battle are expected to have a diminished lifespan. ŞůṜīΣĻ ¹98¹ Speak 15:31, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, thanks. I was thinking that about splitting it up too. You do keep seeing people described as the "last of their type" - I remember an obituary of the Queen Mother saying that at her death, she was the last living main player in the Edward VIII abdication scandal, which I thought was fascinating. I know I'm not the only one fascinated to know who the last person standing was, so I think I'll keep that on my userspace. Incidentally, there is still a lot of non-war related stuff on the Historical Events list, including last native speakers/last members of a race/community/etc, should that be taken out too and if so, is it a valid article subject or equally non-enyclopaedic? (This discussion probably should be moved elsewhere, so pls do advise.) Mabalu (talk) 15:58, 28 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete Far too broad of a criteria for inclusion for a concise article to emerge.  Them From  Space  19:15, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - I am compelled into following the logic that this list has too wide an inclusion criteria, but I can also see how this could be fixed with something close to User:Mabalu/List of last survivors of cultural events2. I am not sure how this could be good, when all is done, for our core readership - students.  It's dangerously close to doing their research for that high school essay. I'd love to see a detailed closing statement from a sibling admin. Bearian (talk) 19:56, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.