Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of locations in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was no consensus. Krimpet (talk) 07:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

List of locations in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

This is a non-notable list of locations that have only appeared in one game. They have no true real world context, and cannot be sourced by anything except the game itself and a few trivial sources. All that can be given are some brief descriptions, and plot summaries that can be covered amply in the settings and plot sections of the main article. TTN 15:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete - WP:NOT a game guide Torinir ( Ding my phone  My support calls   E-Support Options  ) 21:02, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete —  Non-notable list; fails WP:NOT.  ~ Magnus animuM  Brain Freeze!  21:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep how is this not notable? also deleting this would mean you would have to delete every single list of game locations on wikipedia. DBZROCKS 22:17, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Good suggestion there DBZROCKS. Sounds like this article's deletion would be a good start. Can we change your vote to a delete then? :) Slavlin 04:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:NOT game guide and nom.  Mitaphane  ? 22:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom, and if you find more of those game locations lists that DBZROCKS is worried about be sure to nominate those too. Otto4711 22:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep, unless it gets far too long. One man's cruft is another man's noteworthy information, according to each man's interests. Some people follow videogames, some do not. See DBZROCKS above and the previous discussion in Talk:List of locations in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. Does "and plot summaries that can be covered amply in the settings and plot sections of the main article" hereinabove mean a suggestion to merge with Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars? Anthony Appleyard 06:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * When the cruft goes against set guidelines, then it's everybody's cruft. It doesn't mean anything if a couple people find it interesting. That comment means that this content is useless. It doesn't need to be salvaged. TTN 10:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Per WP:IDONTLIKEIT, "Fancruft and Listcruft are only essays and so have no weight when it comes to deletion". Otherwise, I might as well say, “Dur… according to the, um, Pokémon test, any article more notable than the most obsure species of Pokémon deserves its own article.” Look at what it says at the very top, “This is an essay. It is not a policy or guideline; it merely reflects some opinions of its authors.” Taric25 14:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about what I covered in the opening. WP:N: These show no true notability past the games. WP:FICT: They have no true real world context, and they can only have brief descriptions, and plot summaries. WP:RS: No non-trivial sources can be found. There are probably a couple others I could use, if I must. TTN 17:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It is notable, because these areas show notability of the locations in other games notable games, such as Super Mario World and Super Mario Bros.. It shows real–world cultural impact, such as the song “Rawest Forest”. The sources so far are limited, but they are reliable: the game itself, Nintendo Power, and the song creator's website where one may hear the creator's songs and read their lyrics as well as information about the songs. Taric25 01:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep — The main article, Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars has a plot tag, because it is too long, yet User:TTN suggests “plot summaries that can be covered amply in the settings and plot sections of the main article”? We just removed over 1,200 words from the plot section, because it was so long! The settings subsection points to the list of locations, just like featured articles such as Final Fantasy VII does with List of Final Fantasy VII locations. When the article was first created, User:Resolute nominated it for speedy deletion by placing a db-empty tag, which that user quickly removed once the article was no longer empty. In addtion, people were asking the same already–answered questions over and over again on Talk:Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, so it was refactored to include an FAQ section that points to the list of locations. It is also not the only list, since we also have List of characters in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. Furthermore, User:Boston2austin stated, “I don't agree with it being tagged for speedy deletion as this page adds value and information to the Super Mario RPG page.” The sources are not trivial at all: the website of Internet phenomenon associated with the song from the Forest Maze, the game itself, and Nintendo Power. Taric25 06:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The plot summary is crappy, but it can easily be cut down. You cannot compare this to those articles. FF7's page is pretty crappy, but those locations have been in five or so games and a movie. There is certainly more possible encyclopedic value there than here. You want to look at FF8's page, which is a nice looking one; that is what this needs to look like in order to stay. There is little possibility of that happening. The sources are trivial with how they're being used. The music belongs in an audio section, and the other is just useless in this context. TTN 10:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * First, locations such as Mushroom Kingdom, Bowser's Keep, and Star Hill do appear in other games. Second, List of Final Fantasy VII locations is not “crappy”. That article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale. Third, if there's any possibility of this article looking like “a nice looking one”, then you should discuss it on its talk page! Last, on when I provided a citation for the main article, you compliained of my citation style, since I use the vertical format. Although I prefer vertical, I switched to horizontal, because in our discussion you claimed, “After looking at some more FAs, it seems like one in twenty does use the vertical format, but I'm guessing those are older or something. And even then, they are much more condensed and to the point. The inline is the seemingly preferred format.” When I told you to fix it, you indicated, “This was more for the future than right now.", so I did it myself. Other Wipedians and I have removed over 1,200 words from the story, yet you state, “The plot summary is crappy”. I tagged the story section with plot in on March 2nd, and in all the time since then, you have not even edited the story subsection once. Your only contribution to the Plot section in all that time was to change characters back to prose. Taric25 14:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Those aren't the actual locations. They're only used by name, and only one is even from this game. List of Final Fantasy VII locations is crappy by WP:FICT's standards. The writing is fine, but it offers no real world information. That is why it cannot be used as a model. What I mean by nice looking is the article in full prose with sourced, real world information along with the in-universe information. That would be World of Final Fantasy VIII. You can't just "bring that up on the talk page." I'm just saying that it is possible to shorten the story. Really, I don't care enough to recall the game and figure what needs to be done, and I have no obligation to do it. There is a difference between "fix it" and "completely overhaul it." TTN 17:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If you neither care enough to recall the game nor feel you have any obligation to do so, then leave us alone. Go take a wikibreak and come back when you actually want to contribute. Othewise, you are wasting everyone's time. Taric25 01:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge with List of Mario locations. Comparison and description of locations appearing in one of the best selling video games franchises is noteworthy encyclopaedic content. See for example Realms of Arda, Major regions of The Elder Scrolls. User:Krator (t c) 13:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. The user writing this article has done a good job. Instead of merging articles TTN, why can't you try to write a little on your own. Then we can see if you are worthy of calling this article for "crappy". The Prince of Darkness 17:45, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. I think it could use a little tweaking but I find nothing wrong with this as a worthwhile suppliment to one of Nintendo's most recognizable games. Furthermore, the attitude that certain Wikipedia editors have been displaying recently is troublesome to me. I realize that being a WikiP admin is by no means easy but at least be a bit more sensitive to value adding pages like this one.Boston2austin 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep.I completely agree with Boston2austin. I believe that the current editor has done much to improve the article and with alittle guidance can have it up to standards. Also, deletion tag could have been avoided all together if the user would have mentioned the needed changes on the talk page.
 * Furthermore, I would like to point out the behavior of the tagging editor, TTN. His uncivil approach to other editors may be seen in the following edits.
 * "That is all I need to say; I don't need to bring policy or even my arguments into this."
 * This is why I didn't want to bother with you. It's just laughable.
 * "you being totally ignorant of policy, and absorbed in your little world will never get it. ... It is impossible to argue with people like you, so again, I ask how many people will it take to shut you up?"
 * "I deal with people like you very often, so I would just like to end this without dealing with your twisted logic"


 * In my opinion, it does not matter how much you disagree with another persons opinions... you should always remain civil to each and every editor at all times. On top of this, he has also been involved with this editor (User:Taric25) before in what is almost considered an edit war over Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars as he would not talk about changes first.
 * I would also like to indicate that this is not the first time User:TTN has been involved in such a dispute as you can see many more editors warn him and ask him to first speak of his edits and tags.
 * Editor ANNAfoxlover warns him
 * Same Editor Again
 * AGAIN, same editor
 * again
 * A different User's warning
 * Yet another editors warning
 * WarthogDemon's warning for breaking 3RR
 * Kid Sonic's warning
 * Vanderdecken's warning
 * Zachorious's warning editor not to participate in an edit war due to the following comment the editor made
 * "Please don't make me waste my time on an AfD. This will fail it, so please just let it die"
 * Admin WjBscribe 's warning editor for acting on his own accord, against the consensus
 * warning from Cooldude27109506 on similar article as WJBscribe's warning.
 * warnings from Cooldude27109506 (again) and Elaich

I could go on for a long time, as that was only from the last few hundred edits of the 6587 this user has made. I stress that the problem is not with this page... but on an editor(TTN) whose wikibreak is long overdue. Insult after insult... reckless actions time and time again... countless warning from other editors... acting without consulting others... going against established consensus... something needs to be done. this is not how the wikipedia community interacts. thank you for your time, Matthew Yeager 00:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * exactly my point... you are not one to decide what is suitable and what isnt for this page. please do not remove text left by other users, my opinion on the article as well as the tagger is reliant. If it isnt... then it will be decided so by the consensus of the the editors. Matthew Yeager 01:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * How does it belong? You are just criticizing my editing without even truly looking into it. This would only be necessary if this was a bad faith nomination, which it is obviously not. I have explained on your talk page anyways. TTN 01:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Matthew Yeager, I could not have said it better myself. You state, “In my opinion, it does not matter how much you disagree with another persons opinions... you should always remain civil”. That is much more than just your opinion. ☺ As far as consensus goes that no one user may decide what is suitable and what isn't for this page, see the talk page. Taric25 03:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I find it shocking that some users use the (alleged) motivations of the nominator as a reason to keep this article, while not responding to his (valid) arguments. Please, make no personal attacks, and discuss arguments, not editors. --User:Krator (t c) 07:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: "This is a non-notable list of locations that have 1. only appeared in one game. 2. They have no true real world context, and cannot be sourced by anything except the game itself and a few trivial sources. 3. All that can be given are some brief descriptions, and plot summaries that can be covered amply in the settings and plot sections of the main article."

1. Only appeared in one game is not entirely accurate. I'm no mario historian but I know that at least Bowser's Keep and Mushroom Kingdom have appeared in other Mario games. If someone could expand my argument I'd be appreciative. 2. If you are arguing that by "No true real world context," that the environments are not based on terrestrial locations or have lead to adaptations in terrestrial enivronments its specious because any game based in a non-terrestrial environment validates your argument (which is probably at least 99% of all games ever made). 3. Well thats the purpose. IMO it does not meet the "game guide" status as it gives no real spoilers nor informs players of cheats, easter eggs, etc... I mean in terms of a "game guide" one could argue that the list of GTA III locations is a game guide.

Please build or critique on my input.24.27.16.238 12:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * 1. Those are recurring places that change throughout the games. They're nothing special in this game, and they do not justify its existence. Only one location from this game is used in later games, and only by name.
 * 2. No real world context means that they have no impact or importance in the real world. There are likely no possible, non-trivial creation or reception references.
 * 3. Game guide information is anything that would only be found in a game guide. A list of locations that can only be described is no better than describing each track in a racing game. TTN 17:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 1. The 3D rendition of the locations in Mario's universe in this game is the first of its kind. Their description and comparison to the locations that appear in other games is limited at this point, true, but they do appear in other games. In response to your cliam, “location from this game is used in later games, and only by name” is refers to Star Hill ( 星(ほし) の 降(ふ)</rp> る <rb>丘</rb><rp>(</rp><rt>おか</rt><rp>)</rp>  Hoshi no Furu Oka , literally “Falling Star Hill”). Nintendo reused Star Hill in the Japanese versions of Paper Mario (マリオストーリー Mario Sutōrī, literally “Mario Story”) and Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time (マリオ&ルイージRPG2 Mario ando Ruīji Ārupījī Tsū), where Mario locates the Star Shrine inside Star Hill. In the North American version of Paper Mario, Nintendo changed Star Hill to Shooting Star Summit. In addtion, the area in the new games contains token similarities to the original. A critical commentary, including images, is currently not present in the section of the article, and that is one reason why I have marked the article for expansion. Furthermore, it is not the only area that exists in other games. Off the top of my head, I can think of Mario's Pad, which appears in the cartoon as well as other games as Mario's House, Bowser's Keep, which appears in practically every Mario game, and the Mushroom Kingdom, the subject of many games in the Mario series.
 * 2. The current real–world references this article has at the moment is limited, true, and that is another reason I have marked the article for expansion as well as need for citation. One such reference is from the magazine Nintendo Power which shows how the aera behind the Locked Door in Monstro Town references Final Fantasy. A further critical commentary of the vortex that Culex occupies, rather than just information about Culex himself, as well as images, are not currently present in that section of the article. That is another reason I have marked the article for expansion. Also, the internet phenomenon the song “Rawest Forest” dealth with real–life frustration gamers faced in the Maze portion of the Forest Maze. ♪ When I play the game, I get lost in a phase. Then I find out I'm stuck in Geno's Maze. ♪♪

and ♪ Exiting the forest is super simple: All you do is follow these path turns For the rest of your gaming life Follow Geno's route here... Follow Geno's route here... Follow Geno's route here... ♪♪
 * 3. Game guides to not discuss cultural impact or resuse in future games. Taric25 21:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * 1. I just stated that those locations are recurring throughout the Mario series. The fact that they exist in the game means little. Star Hill's inclusion in other games is your only actual example thus far. It's not even that important. Marking the article for expansion will only work if it can actually be expanded with something other than plot.
 * 2. As I stated above, such information needs to exist for the tag to work. You have found to fairly trivial NP citations, which does little to even fill the void that this article has. “Rawest Forest” is hardly an internet phenomenon. It barely breaks 500 on any search engine, and it has no real world notability. You cannot provide those two things and just say "that's good enough for now." It shows nothing more than the fact that a couple of trivial things can be sourced, and nothing shows that they cannot be included in the main article.
 * 3. First, you have to show that more than two of these have real world impact (even though none of them do as of yet). TTN 22:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 1. No, I've given examples such as Bowser's Keep and the Mushroom Kingdom. For example, doors 1–6 in Bowser's Keep in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars reference the same 6 doors in Bowser's Keep in Super Mario World. Star Road is another location that appears in multiple games. Although it appears in the game, during the ending, it is not a playable area, however, Star Road is playable in Super Mario World.
 * 2. Again, essays, such as Search engine test, are not policy. Also, how do you know what you're measuring? I just did a search for key phrases from the lyrics with quotes and came up with 3,940 results. The reason you my find so few results is, a lot of people discuss the song who are not quote the lyrics correctly. For example, this Japanese website shows the song lyrics, but the author writes, among many lines from the song, “Follow Geno's rootbeer”, instead of “Follow Geno's route here”, obviously from hearing, instead of the written lyrics. It's not unusual for people to discuss a song and not know its title and misquote its lyrics, so it's not unusual that you wouldn't come up with a large number of results. As that essay states, “in a nutshell: Measuring is easy. What's hard is knowing what it is you're measuring.”
 * 3. Do you think any List of locations in XYZ videogame artilces have real world impact impact? Do you think any of them are notable? Taric25 01:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 1. And those are not examples because they do not define notability of any kind. Cross-game reference are neat and all, but they fall pretty short of notable. Then there is the problem of actually getting sources for them that aren't fan sites.
 * 2. That is not policy, but it makes it really hard for you to claim that it is a "phenomenon" on the same level as that whole Numa Numa dance thing. People discussing lyrics makes it notable how? To be notable in the sense of notable that this site uses, something usually needs an article, which is not happening in this case. It is quite easy to tell if this were an notable internet meme, as you claim it is, it would return many more hits than that. Even minor ones like "Loituma Girl" get tens of thousands just by name.
 * 3. Not really. They lack any true encyclopedic information, and are pretty pointless. A few may be worth it, but in general, World of Final Fantasy VIII type articles would be much better. TTN 02:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletions.  -- Pax:Vobiscum 09:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.