Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of monsters in Marvel Comics


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. If the content ultimately belongs elsewhere or should take a different form, that is a content dispute to be resolved on the talk page. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:10, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

List of monsters in Marvel Comics

 * – ( View AfD View log )

This is a collection of trivial characters under a topic that has no actual definition. There is no in-universe character trait/race called "monster" that I can see, so it's just an indiscriminate list of trivial characters. TTN (talk) 21:36, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * If the goal is to change the scope of the topic into a topic on a franchise(?) rather than the current indiscriminate list, I'll withdraw this. TTN (talk) 01:09, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. TTN (talk) 21:36, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. TTN (talk) 21:36, 16 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: I did not do a deep source check, but I was able to find some coverage from news publications, including real world commentary on the subject:


 * https://screenrant.com/marvel-monsters-changed-comics-code/


 * https://www.denofgeek.com/comics/marvels-31-best-monsters/


 * https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/5-best-marvel-monsters-ever/


 * https://www.cbr.com/marvel-best-monsters-before-silver-age/


 * The topic itself clearly isn't WP:OR, and it verifiably had an impact on the Comics Code Authority. My instinct is to convert the article to prose or add a couple of paragraphs about it somewhere else.  Dark knight  2149  22:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)


 * That being said, the article does need to be altered from its current form. Right now, it's practically asking for passing readers to add random characters based on their own opinions on what a monster is.  Dark knight  2149  22:15, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep: The monsters of the pre-Silver Age were a big deal during that time period and there seems to sources still now. Where do you think Groot and Fin Fang Foom came from? Jhenderson  7 7 7  23:20, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Would it make more sense to convert the article to prose, and have it discuss the topic of Monsters in Marvel Comics / Marvel Monsters as a whole? I definitely agree with you that the topic has a degree of notability based on the sources:


 * "Nowadays, some of Marvel Comics' most compelling heroes are not regular humans, but monsters. It is hard to imagine what the Marvel Universe would be like without the likes of Blade, Ghost Rider, and several of the X-Men, but for a long time, monsters had a bad reputation in Marvel Comics. Never seen as heroes, non-human creatures were often depicted as scary, otherworldly villains that human superheroes had to defeat every week... [Goes over an in-depth history of Marvel Monsters] However, a new change for monsters and superheroes came around in the early 1970s, in line with changes made to the Comics Code Authority. For much of the twentieth century, Marvel adhered to the Comics Code Authority (CCA), which provided guidelines for content that went into their books. Much like Hollywood's Motion Picture Production Code, the CCA was conservative in the themes that it deemed appropriate for comic books to discuss. It banned the depiction of monsters such as vampires, werewolves, 'ghouls,' and the 'walking dead' until it was revised in 1971, which allowed for these monsters to be written about if they were presented in the manner of high literary examples like Frankenstein and Bram Stoker's Dracula.As such, it is no surprise that a number of Marvel's most popular monster heroes today debuted in the aftermath of the Code's revision. However, they were not written like Lovecraft's monsters, but as compelling individuals with extraordinary abilities mixed with a superhero's sense of morality and justice. In the years succeeding, characters such as Blade, Werewolf By Night (Jack Russell), Ghost Rider, Nightcrawler, and Wolfsbane all entered the Marvel Universe, kickstarting Marvel's new vision of superheroes."
 * "Starting in the late Silver Age, the Comics Code became less restrictive (because Frederic Wertham was killed by a mummy…actually, no he wasn’t), and Marvel was able to bring in all sorts of boogeymen to share page time with the likes of Thor, Spider-Man, and the Fantastic Four. These new, Universal-inspired monsters joined the Kirby Kreatures like Fin Fang Foom and Googam as the Marvel Universe became a world where things that go bump in the night became as commonplace as superheroes. [Goes over some of the major monsters from Marvel in detail]"
 * "It’s a promising event, as well as one that is firmly rooted at the start of the company’s more than five decades of existence. Before Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, and Stan Lee started building the Marvel Universe, they were focused on telling monster stories. There’s even a clear point of crossover on the cover of Fantastic Four #1 in which Marvel’s First Family battles Giganto, an enormous monstrosity much like those found in prior months, on their debut adventure. Monsters have never really gone anywhere either. While the focus quickly shifted to superheroes, monsters have regularly featured as villains and misunderstood protagonists in those books and in many titles of their own. Fans have even seen some favorite characters converted into monsters, like The Punisher in “Frankencastle”."
 * "Before launching a universe of superheroes, Marvel Comics, and its predecessor Atlas, was best known for monsters with outrageous names. Often illustrated by Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko, the monsters are still captivating today, even with their dated stories and origins. Several of these monsters were brought into the Marvel Universe properly, sometimes seriously, and sometimes acknowledging the silly names and concepts. Several have even had their names changed from very familiar-sounding origins."


 * I think there are ways to make the page more informative and comprehensive to readers than just listing off a bunch of characters, which is essentially a WP:OR attractant right now.  Dark knight  2149  23:38, 16 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep - Let this page stay. As mentioned above, the monsters of the pre-Silver Age were a big deal in comics. Plus, some of the monster characters who had pages on this website were redirected to this article. --Rtkat3 (talk) 23:32, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per comments above - noting that there are several WP:RS in the article - per WP:ATD and WP:PRESERVE. BOZ (talk) 00:17, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Convert to prose format: Per my comments above. I think any notable examples of Marvel Monsters would come up naturally in the history text, and having it in its current form is likely to attract original research. I think having it simply list off monsters also robs the topic of its encyclopedic value. Given the role that monsters played in the Comics Code Authority, development of superheroes, and in Marvel's history, there are more informative ways of tackling the topic.  Dark knight  2149  00:52, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep and make it way better. The history of Marvel "monster comics" is well discussed in books about Marvel comics. But yes, the article as it exists does not really tell that story; it should be comprehensively rewritten. — Toughpigs (talk) 04:50, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete Everyone so far in the AfD has not given a single policy-based reason for keeping the article. The topic may be able to be covered in prose, but that really has no bearing on this since it would require a total rewrite. This article in particular is heavily reminiscient of the D&D monster lists, in that it's all plot and solely primary sourced. If someone wishes to save a local copy of it for help writing the new article so be it, but that doesn't mean it should be kept.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 05:19, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Because article content does not determine notability. People are voting "keep" on the basis of the topic having sufficient coverage. People are saying "rewrite in prose form" because the current revision of the article is a mess. in itself isn't a reason for deletion. WP:ATD is a Wikipedia policy and it says upfront: . Every flawed article is not solved through deletion.  Dark  knight  2149  06:24, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The article's title contains "List", and there is no guarantee it will be moved and totally rewritten upon the close of this AfD. People often say an article should be remade and it never happens. I feel the best option is not to keep in the hopes of a future change but delete pending a future resubmission.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 11:16, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep entirely reasonable subject for a list. Artw (talk) 05:02, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Whether you believe it is a reasonable subject does not really matter, WP:ITSUSEFUL/WP:ILIKEIT. What matters is whether it's a suitable subject for a Wikipedia list, AfD is WP:NOTAVOTE, it relies on evidence and consensus.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 06:41, 18 November 2020 (UTC)


 * You deletionists are not adhering to WP:JUSTAPOLICY, WP:Not notable, WP:ASSERTN, WP:ITSCRUFT, WP:IGNORINGATD,WP:TRIVIALCOVERAGE. So we need to stop nitpicking because these AFD’s are a mess of bad arguments from both sides IMO.  Jhenderson  7 7 7  18:20, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * List pages pretty much exist to be useful. Artw (talk) 00:35, 19 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Potentially merge to List of Marvel Comics characters. Seems unreasonable that this exists on its own, unless I'm missing something. Sean Stephens (talk) 22:36, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep and rework into prose as suggested. No prejudice against relisting this article for a second nomination for AfD if it doesn't improve within a reasonable amount of time. Haleth (talk) 23:48, 18 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.