Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of motte-and-bailey castles in Belgium


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Withdrawn. I might even visit a castle in Belgium later today so I’m not really independent but the outcome is obvs. Spartaz Humbug! 07:43, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

List of motte-and-bailey castles in Belgium

 * – ( View AfD View log )

List completely lacking sources which appears to be original research. I sent this to draft so the creator could source it, but they just moved it back into mainspace without improvement. My preferred outcome is draftify. Mccapra (talk) 19:08, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 19:08, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 19:08, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 19:08, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Belgium-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 19:08, 24 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep Draftification is disruptive because it removes pages from the place where readers and editors expect to find topics and buries them where they just gather dust and then get speedily deleted. The topic in this case is clearly notable per WP:LISTN; a list of sources follows.  The claim that this is completely lacking in sources and OR is false because most of the entries seem to be supported by listings of the Flanders Heritage Agency.  Policies WP:ATD and WP:PRESERVE therefore apply, "If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page."  See also WP:ITSACASTLE and WP:NOTCLEANUP. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:33, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Celebrated Castles in Belgium (2004)
 * 2) Castles of Belgium (1980) by Julien Van Remoortere
 * 3) Castles of Belgium (1967) by Joseph de Ghellinck d'Elseghem
 * 4) Castles of Belgium (1998) by Georges Henri Dumont
 * 5) Castles of Belgium and the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg (1996)
 * 6) Fifty Castles Bring to Life the History of Belgium (1971)
 * Comment The edit history tells a different story: as it goes, the creator created articles in both the draft and mainspace, and your only edit there is an attempt at speedy deletion. Care to clarify? Avilich (talk) 20:03, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes that’s correct. The article was copy pasted from draft to mainspace. I attempted to draftify it but was unable to do so as a draft already existed, I then sought to have the article speedily deleted as an unsourced article where a draft existed. Mccapra (talk) 21:28, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Could've just redirected to the draft or moved to a similar title. Avilich (talk) 13:24, 25 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment Would the nominator please explain any attempts to verify that sourcing does or does not exist per WP:BEFORE? Being unsourced is not a cause for deletion, being unsourceable is. Jclemens (talk) 20:48, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes I searched for “mottes castrales en Belgique” and “ mottes en mottekastelen in België” and found nothing that discussed these sites as a list. Mccapra (talk) 21:32, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * These search strings seem too narrow – I have no difficulty finding sources such as Mottes castrales des anciens Pays-Bas méridionaux. Note that Belgium is a comparatively recent creation and so sources may refer to earlier geopolitical boundaries. Andrew🐉(talk) 21:56, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The table contains numerous sources such as this. Per WP:CITEVAR, the fact that this is not done as a footnote does not stop it being a source.  So, people who claim that there are no sources either don't understand what a source is or haven't looked at the page carefully. Andrew🐉(talk) 21:16, 24 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep on the grounds that Motte-and-Bailey castles are of great historical significance across the whole of Europe (as is Belgium, though we in the UK tend to pretend otherwise), and castles are generally fairly verifiable objects. Elemimele (talk) 21:33, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Draftify topic appears notable and sources seem to be available, but apparently no effort has been made by the page creator to reference the list. Mztourist (talk) 06:42, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep The "Heritage" column seems to contain quite a few sources (example—which, unless the machine translation I got is way off, verifies the key info), even if they're not explicitly labelled as such. Not all entries are sourced, but that's a cleanup issue rather than a deletion issue. TompaDompa (talk) 17:56, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep While Mztourist accurately summarizes the current state of the list, the solution to such is editing, not draftification. There are clearly articulated reasons for removing uncited material listed in WP:BURDEN; these castles meet none of them. Jclemens (talk) 18:04, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep meets our guideline WP:LISTN Lightburst (talk) 20:53, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Withdraw nomination with thanks to everyone who has commented above. Mccapra (talk) 00:40, 26 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.