Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of movies featuring Wing Chun


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

List of movies featuring Wing Chun
The result was Keep. Keilana | Parlez ici 02:37, 13 April 2012 (UTC)


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Big slice of original research (look at the text for Sherlock Holmes, for example).  Lugnuts  (talk) 19:30, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 14:12, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 14:12, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 14:13, 30 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Strong delete This is an unsourced article that is pure original resaarch (as well as 100% subjective). Papaursa (talk) 02:43, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. Wing Chun is a recognized martial arts style. Article can be improved rather than deleted. JoshuSasori (talk) 07:09, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No one is questioning the notability of the martial art, but this is one big slice of WP:OR that lists films (sorry, movies) that apparently feature this. How is that notable?  Lugnuts  (talk) 07:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, it's a bad article, but it could be a valid concept if references were found, no? JoshuSasori (talk) 10:05, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you'd need to find significant reliable independent sources talking about this list. Papaursa (talk) 01:20, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment - Could this content possibly be merged into the article at Wing Chun? A412  (Talk &bull; C) 22:37, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think putting original research into the Wing Chun article is a good idea. Papaursa (talk) 01:20, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:32, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment. As a concept, the article is fine, it's just that the content needs extensive cleanup.  If it was cleaned up from what we have now, there would be nothing there.  If no-one is willing to improve the article, then yes, delete, but it could be a valid article at some point.  --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:41, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep The list's problem is lack of sourcing and poor layout, both of which are editing issues. Original research and poor examples stand out like sore thumbs once a list is worked on and referenced. This book, for instance, is published by Columbia University press and identifies Warriors Two, The Prodigal Son (film) and (unsurprisingly) Wing Chun (film) as all being about this particular branch of kung fu. It also identifies that the style is briefly seen in Bruce Lee's Way of the Dragon and Enter the Dragon, but since it's only seen briefly they're the kind of examples I would hesitate to add without further sources stating they're iconic examples of wing chun. Someoneanother 11:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. Although the article is specifying one very specific martial art and thus, may be a short list, I feel as though lists on Wikipedia are extremely helpful to people; especially movie-loves (i.e., List of Films Set in the Future, et cetera).  I agree with Joshu on this one.    LogicalCreator   —Preceding undated comment added 11:51, 5 April 2012 (UTC).
 * Comment - I think that this might be a little difficult to determine. Many martial arts actors have backgrounds in more than one martial art.  If an actor has learned Wing Chun, Taewkondo, and Judo, then performs in a movie does that mean that the movie features Wing Chun?  What about a movie that indicates in the dialog that Wing Chun is being used, but is actually using Wushu?  There's a lot of overlap between martial arts that would make identifying one over another virtually impossible.-- Stv  Fett erly  (Edits)  13:55, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't need to make that identification ourselves; we just need to find reliable sources making that identification. postdlf (talk) 14:14, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I think it would be difficult to find reliable sources that indicate this though.  The fact that there are 0 sources in the article would tend to corroborate this theory.  Actually the book listed above (Kung Fu Cult Masters: From Bruce Lee to Crouching Tiger) says that "in Warriors Two ... no one ... does Wing Chun properly or well" on page 31.  On page 30 of the same book it also indicates that Bruce Lee doesn't use Wing Chun in his movies "Bruce Lee learned Wing Chun from grandmaster Yip Man, although he adopted a flashier style of fighting for his films"  There isn't really anything presented in this book other than the author's interpretation that some things in some movies might be Wing Chun.  That's hardly conclusive evidence.  -- Stv  Fett erly  (Edits)  14:25, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't need "conclusive evidence" that something "is" or "isn't"; just reliable sources asserting that it is. Even if sources might expressly disagree on a particular film, the list can note that disagreement. postdlf (talk) 14:57, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep per Someone another; the Columbia University Press book he has located identifies no fewer than six movies depicting this martial art. Which means their inclusion in this list is verifiable, which means the topic is not inherently OR and any OR in this list can be fixed through normal editing. Which means it's improvable, which means it can't be deleted. QED. postdlf (talk) 14:14, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment the bottom of the article here further illustrates the problem of trying to identify/seperate martial arts:  "many of the techniques of Wing Chun kung fu are notably similar to those of late 19th century “gentlemanly fisticuffs”. Both styles feature erect fighting stances, vertical fist punches and an emphasis upon protecting the central line of the body." -- Stv  Fett erly  (Edits)  14:40, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Funnily enough I've just been reading the same source. It's worth noting that Downey Jr. is a practitioner of Wing Chun, and according to this (Kung Fu Magazine) article: "if Downey's fighting method as Holmes is to be characterized into any style, forget authenticity to Doyle. For Sherlock, Downey is throwing wing chun moves, plain and simple." This 'original research' is not just fans' opinions. Someoneanother 15:24, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment- I know that Downey has said he was doing Wing Chun in the movie. The Sherlock Holmes fight co-ordinator in the article I listed above says that in the movie they used a combination of "Chinese boxing that Downey practices as the foundation and also incorporate swordplay and elements of Brazilian ju-jitsu".  When you start mixing martial arts, when does something stop becoming a particular art?  Should any martial arts movie that has some kind of connection to Wing Chun be listed in this article?-- Stv  Fett erly  (Edits)  19:51, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The list as it was (and still is, wording tweaked) gave no specific limits to what could be included. This would not be my choice but it's not my creation and I'm not volunteering to keep updating it. I like Way of the Dragon and old Jackie Chan movies, but martial arts and film/TV aren't my editing areas. Regarding how to pick out relevant films to list, if the list remains small then including any which can be verified to contain Wing Chun should not a major issue. Even if editors decided to go the other way and only include films which strongly feature the style, there would still be a population with films like Wing Chun, the Ip Man films and Invincible Shaolin. With Sherlock Holmes it's not necessary to indulge in original research; the fight director calls it X, Kung Fu Magazine says "Downey is throwing wing chun moves, plain and simple." The sources can be used that way in the notes section. If editors of the list want a more definitive statement then they'll have to find a more definitive source (IE Downey Jr. stating that it was Wing Chun in an interview). Someoneanother 22:20, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep (with two caveats):
 * - The exact inclusion criteria for 'featuring Wing Chun' needs to be nailed down for the article. Does this mean Wing Chun has to be performed in the movie, is the name Wing Chun in the movie title enough for inclusion, is the topic of Wing Chun being discussed in the movie enough for inclusion, if an actor has studied Wing Chun before and stars in this movie is that enough for inclusion?  I will modify the lede to something that seems appropriate.
 * - Each movie included should have a reference that specifically mentions Wing Chun in relation to the movie. If no reference can be found, then the movie should be removed from the list.  I'll be looking for references for all movies currently listed.

-- Stv Fett erly  (Edits)  13:46, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * If the conditions mentioned by StvFetterly are met, I would happily withdraw my delete vote. The problem I had with the article was there were no sources or criteria for the list. Papaursa (talk) 04:46, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.