Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of night buses in London (3rd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. No clear solution rises above the rest here: 1) deleting the article; 2) merging to List of bus routes in London; 3) keeping it as is; 4) moving the article to Night buses in London and changing its focus. King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 02:57, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

List of night buses in London
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

A list of bus routes is already covered in List of bus routes in London and night buses in general can be covered in Buses in London. This article goes beyond the content in the general bus route list article by providing detailed route designations for every route (WP:NOTTRAVEL) and a few random facts about changing bus operators for some. If the routes are notable they should have their own articles, else the list is perfectly fine in List of bus routes in London. Ajf773 (talk) 23:19, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Ajf773 (talk) 23:19, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Ajf773 (talk) 23:19, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. Ajf773 (talk) 23:19, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete per WP:NOTDIR, WP:NOTTRAVEL and WP:ORCharles (talk) 10:27, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep but trim the route lists. Several of the entries contain encyclopaedic histories that should be added to the other routes where sources for this exist. The solution to lists like this to improve them not delete them. Thryduulf (talk) 11:41, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete/marge Redundant to List of bus routes in London, does not need a separate article with such detail. Reywas92Talk 20:39, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep, plenty of scope to expand with third party sources. 11Expo (talk) 05:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep.  A "List of Night buses in Podunk, Iowa, USA" is not needed or useful, but London is different.  The one in France or wherever, not this one. :) --Doncram (talk) 00:49, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith (talk) 01:06, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep The nomination is an argument for merger, not deletion, and simply repeats what was said in the previous unsuccessful nomination. The topic is notable because it's easy to find an multi-volume book about it – London's Night Buses – and so it passes WP:LISTN. Andrew D. (talk) 09:11, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
 * No, it's not. The ideal course of action is to delete because this duplicates a lot of content already covered in other articles, or to redirect to an article most appropriate. Ajf773 (talk) 09:32, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
 * It normally requires more than a single highly specialised book on a subject to establish notability. Specific coverage in mainstream publications is needed.Charles (talk) 10:06, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
 * A book which is specifically about the topic is the best evidence of notability – demonstrating that there is plenty to be said about the topic and that there are people willing to publish and read it. There's plenty of more general works which cover the topic too, e.g. The Guardian. Andrew D. (talk) 14:17, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
 * "else the list is perfectly fine in List of bus routes in London." - from nominator's opening remarks, so are we here for deletion or merge/redirect (covered by closing admin of previous afd)? Coolabahapple (talk) 10:16, 28 March 2019 (UTC)


 * This would be better as an article, Night buses in London. Peter James (talk) 15:52, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Note, the article existed as "Night buses in London", but was moved in 2009 to "List of night buses in London". We don't need two articles for the topic and the list of examples, I assume.  The exact title doesn't matter for AFD. --Doncram (talk) 01:23, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The contents of sections from N1 to N551 should be deleted or moved; the title should redirect to Night buses in London where there would still be the list that's currently in the Operations section. Peter James (talk) 22:20, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * To clarify, Night buses in London is a redirect (and has been since 2009) to List of night buses in London. User:Peter James, your statement might come across to others as if you believe there is a different article to which List of night buses in London could be redirected.  In fact, I think you mean that you support a move to "Night buses in London" and some severe editing.  That's okay for you to want or to suggest, but IMHO that is a matter for editing and non for AFD.  "Merge" or "Redirect" would not be appropriate (because there is no such target to merge or redirect to).  So IMHO your discussion should be interpreted as a "Keep" vote (or "Keep but suggest rename") for purpose of AFD. --Doncram (talk) 04:01, 30 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge,Can be merged in other articles such as Buses in London Alex-h (talk) 20:48, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The list already exists in List of bus routes in London. Ajf773 (talk) 20:53, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 16:37, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete as WP:NOTTRAVEL. Anyone advocating for a merge, please explain which part of the article should be merged because an article of this length cannot have a full merge. All I see is a massive list. Doesn't the city of London have a website with this information anyway?--Rusf10 (talk) 22:46, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes of course. Most if not all of the list is original research taken from the Transport for London website.Charles (talk) 09:54, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 10:52, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep List of bus routes in London doesn't need another whole article merged into it, Night bus route seems to be a perfectly valid resource in my opinion and there are even books written on the subject. Govvy (talk) 19:02, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It doesn't need merging as the routes are already mentioned on that list article. If the routes are notable, they'll have individual articles. Currently no N-prefixed London Buses route has one. Ajf773 (talk) 20:10, 13 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment. London would simply not exist as it does now without its history of night buses.  It would not have developed as it is now.  Social culture would not be what it is, without the mixing and encounters that have gone on.  Surely there must exist a ton of social science research and indirect research including literature reviews.  Aren't there more than a few highly notable incidents in literature, at the Bridget Jones level or crime detective novel or whatever.  What about the time the Queen rode a night bus to return from visiting Elton John or whatever.


 * Honestly I think the topic of "night buses in London" is very clearly a Wikipedia-valid topic, being the topic of at least one book and of at least one documentary. It seems obvious to me that the world of night is different than the world of day, and that there is culture/life/history/more on the buses.  There are literally zillions of TV shows and movies with scenes of London night buses.  There could be a separate article about the movie/tv settings, or that could be a section in the article under discussion.


 * I distrust Ajf773's repeated calls for a merger to one big bus list-article, because I sort of believe that what Ajf773 wants is no coverage at all of the topic (I may be wrong, and I ping them to seek their clarification.) I think they are dismissing the topic of "night buses in London".  The big list-article has a subsection on just some of the night bus routes (the ones that currently exist and are "Night only routes (N-prefixed)").  All the other current night buses get no mention (there is no mention of night-running or not for all the other routes).  It is simply not an article that is ever going to properly cover the topic of night buses in London, which is a huge subject that is the subject of photographic work, of movies, TV shows, books, documentaries and more.


 * There is no room in the basic London bus routes list-article for discussion of night bus history and movie scenes and whatever. The AFD-targeted article does cover history and social context, and IMHO this aspect should be beefed up.  Maybe the simple listing of the actual current routes should be reduced, and the emphasis should be shifted back to being about the phenomenon.  Here is a copy of the current history section of the AFD-targeted article is:"The first night bus was introduced in 1913. A few more services were introduced over the following decades, before all ceased during World War II. Services resumed after the war, increasing as trams and trolleybuses were replaced in the late 1950s and 1960s. In April 1984, the number of routes was increased from 21 to 32. At this point the peak service required 80 buses, by August 2013 this had grown to 890."


 * "Originally the night bus network had its own fare structure, but with the introduction of the Oyster card in 2003, was incorporated into the Transport for London fare structure. Up until the mid-2000s, all routes had N prefixes. However, as some routes merely mirrored their day time equivalents, the N prefixes were dropped and these routes became 24-hour services; for example, route N14 was no longer differentiated from route 14."


 * "Services are operated by private operators under contract to London Buses. The Night Bus contracts are often bundled with that of the equivalent daytime route and awarded for a five-year period, with an optional two-year extension based on performance standards being met. Some however are tendered individually."


 * "With some London Underground lines operating a 24-hour service from August 2016 on weekends, a further eight routes commenced 24 hour operation on Friday and Saturday nights. Further changes are expected as the Night Tube network is expanded."


 * "In May 2015, the Night Bus network was the subject of The Night Bus, a Channel 4 documentary."
 * This is good stuff as far as it goes, and it should be expanded. It is natural IMO to also include (retain) a list of all the N-prefixed and non-N-prefixed night bus routes that currently run, and some listing of old and important but now defunct routes.  But I would prefer for there to be more about the culture.  Discussion about such editing should continue at the Talk page;  it is not for AFD. --Doncram (talk) 01:42, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
 * As mentioned by other users, the list of buses already appears in another article. We don't need a separate article for each of non-N and N prefixed buses, just one is enough. We do not need a list of bus stops alon each route as generally this is getting into travel guide territory, and routine coverage of tenders and contracts isn't enough to satisfy notability. The night bus history content could easily be just appended to Buses in London or created using Night buses in London. Or if any routes are notable in their own right, in an article for that route. Ajf773 (talk) 08:53, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Again Night buses in London is merely a redirect to List of night buses in London; the topic is broad and can naturally include a list.  So the deletion nominator is suggesting "Keep".  Or perhaps instead they want to propose a split?!?!  Or a rename??? That is not for AFD.
 * It has repeatedly been established by two previous AFDs and by multiple participants here that "night buses in London" or "list of night buses in London" is a notable topic. Simply keep.  Arguments about "travel guide" etc are nonsense, IMHO, with respect to this AFD.  If stuff gets too much like a travel guide, then that is a matter for editing.  This AFD is ready to be closed Keep already, IMHO. --Doncram (talk) 01:05, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The deletion nominator is suggesting delete. Nothing in this article needs to be merged anywhere. Only stuff in your endless list of sources you want included. Ajf773 (talk) 09:10, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
 * That last was not a sentence. I dunno, i suppose you meant to be sarcastic about "sources"? --Doncram (talk) 17:54, 19 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment: What i think is going on is:  the deletion nominator assumes (or "knows" from their life experience) that "night buses in London" is not a thing, so they don't look for sources;  I personally assume (or "know" from my life experience) that it is a thing, so i didn't look for sources either.
 * Okay, let's try a simple search, google for "night bus London photo". That instantly yields:
 * Multiple hits coverage 2016 book "On the Night Bus" by photographer Nick Turpin: Wired, Londonist, Hoxton mini-press, Anothermag, CreativeReview, HuckMag, MetroCoUk, (and there are lots more)
 * "Night owls: portraits of life on the night bus – in pictures", ongoing project by Sarah Lee for the Guardian, Guardian
 * "London Night buses through the years in pictures", Economist, 2016
 * And my favorite: "Tales from the night bus: Photographer Tim Kavanagh's eerie photo series", in Independent. Sophie Heawood's 2014 article is personal and funny!
 * And like I pretty much asserted above, there exists an endless list of sources, if you want to look back over more years or otherwise spend more than 2 minutes like I just did. So, sources exist, so the decision should obviously be "Keep". --Doncram (talk) 17:54, 19 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete. WP:NOTTRAVEL, a policy, is directly on point. We do not merely reproduce primary sources. If the topic is notable, the article should be Night buses in London, and cover history, economic importance, rolling stock, etc.  Sandstein   21:07, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * With respect, given your opinion about NOTTRAVEL, User:Sandstein, still, why !vote "delete"? The article existed at "Night buses in London" until it was moved in 2009 to "List of night buses in London".  Setting aside disagreement about whether a list of bus routes can be included or not, there is still some content besides the actual list of current night buses.  It simply seems wrong to me to destroy the connection to past edits and content and Talk page discussion and the multiple AFDs (linked from the Talk page, include various sources not reflected in the article, and more), by an outright deletion.  I wrote the essay wp:TNTTNT which has somewhat been accepted (after being challenged by an MFD deletion), against outright wp:TNT deletions, and many of the reasons there apply to Keeping here.  Could you please explain why you support deletion rather than move back to "Night buses in London" plus editing? --Doncram (talk) 02:28, 21 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.