Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of notable Bahranis


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. The greater part of this debate is taken up with a discussion of the correct meaning of the terms "Bahrani" and "Bahraini". AfD is not the best venue for settling such matters. On this the article editors should clarify how the article is using those terms and explicitly state the criteria for inclusion for inclusion in the list in its lede as required by MOS:LIST. Once that is firmly established, the entries can be limited to only those whose article makes a claim to meeting those criteria or otherwise established by RS. If the list ends up empty after that, then is the time to come back to AfD, but not before. I am also moving the title back to List of Bahranis (from where it was recently moved) as this is contrary to MOS:LIST. SpinningSpark 13:43, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

List of notable Bahranis

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This was tagged for proposed deletion per WP:PROD. The reason stated in the prod notice was as follows:

"Article exclusively based on anecdotal evidence and no reliable source explicitly states that the individuals listed (many of whom are ethnic Hasawis and Persians) belong to the Baharna ethnic group. The surname al-Bahrani itself denotes Eastern Arabian descent and one does not necessarily have to be an ethnic Baharna to carry that name. Hence, many Sunni clerics such as al-Abbas ibn Yazid al-Bahrani who did not belong to the Baharna ethnic group went by that name."

Because this is rated as a top-importance list and it has a long editing history (with many potential sources having been deleted), deletion of this article may be controversial. So it is more appropriately handled at AfD, where it is likely to get wider scrutiny. I am personally neutral at this time. Arxiloxos (talk) 15:54, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2014 July 6.  — cyberbot I  Notify Online 17:09, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Middle East-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:06, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:06, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:06, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bahrain-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:33, 7 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep. We should undoubtedly have a list of [notable] people from Bahrain, as a complement to Category:Bahrani people, just as we should any nationality. And we also list notable people by ethnicity. To the extent there isn't a perfect overlap there, how those different groupings are resolved (whether in one list or in separate ones) is a matter for ordinary editing and discussion to resolve. The present lack of sources in the list is not relevant to whether it should be kept or whether the listed individuals' status as people of Bahrain or of Bahrani descent is verifiable (obviously some such notable people have existed). This should of course be renamed to List of Bahranis to remove the self-referential, MOS noncompliant, and unnecessary use of "notable" in the title (i.e., we don't need to include "notable" in the title to nevertheless limit the list to only notable individuals). postdlf (talk) 01:41, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Most, if not all, of the individuals listed are of Hasawi (e.g, Nabeel Rajab, Abdulhadi Alkhwaja), Persian (Abbas Almohri), or Qatifi descent. None of the people listed's Bahrani descent is verifiable by any means. AsimAlsadeh (talk) 08:07, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * So your claim is really that there are incorrect entries. That's a matter for cleanup, not deletion. But just to take the first example you listed, Nabeel Rajab is identified in his article (FWIW) as having been born in Bahrain and still living there, and his whole history and notable activities are tied to Bahrain. So that certainly qualifies him for inclusion in a list of people of Bahrain as that's clearly his nationality. You seem instead exclusively focused on ethnicity, though I'd also note that Rajab's article does not mention anything about Hasawi or Qatifi heritage (nor do we even have articles on those groups, which makes me wonder about what's going on here). Regardless, as I stated above, to what extent this list should target nationality or ethnicity (or both) is a matter for ordinary editing and discussion to decide, and not our concern here. postdlf (talk) 13:16, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete The ethnic criteria for people in Bahrain is apparently too complex to easily be put in the list. Lack of adequate sourcing and lack of showing that this ethnic grouping is relevant in the current social-political context of Bahrain.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:20, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Then make it a list focusing on Bahrani nationality rather than ethnicity. postdlf (talk) 17:27, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jenks24 (talk) 15:00, 14 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete Problem is that no reliable source states that most of the individuals listed are even of Eastern Arabian descent (Bahrani nationality). Well actually, NO source does, whether reliable or unreliable. Also, this article focuses on those belonging to the Baharna ethnic group, not people of Bahrani nationality. AsimAlsadeh (talk) 22:44, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The vast majority of entries are verifiably people of the country of Bahrain, so WP:TNT is not a useful approach here; in other words, this list could more easily be edited into a list focused exclusively on nationality than to delete this and restart from scratch. Beyond that, unless you don't know what nationality means, I don't think you mean to claim that whether someone is of Bahrani nationality is never verifiable, which would just be absurd. Bahrain is a real country, not some made-up micronation or disputed territory without official recognition. postdlf (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * A Bahrani (the modern sense which translates one who belongs to the Eastern Arabian Baharna ethnic group) is different from a Bahraini (a person from Bahrain). Yes, it is next to impossible to verify if someone is a Bahrani or not because such claims have never been put forward in books or any other reliable sources mostly because these claims have always been passed down generation to generation orally and they still do to this day and never have been put forward in texts. Go ahead and try finding a source (whether reliable or unreliable) to prove me otherwise.

Oh and sorry if this sounds a bit harsh but it was pretty stupid for you to assume that the demonym of a person originating from Bahrain is Bahrani without doing any research beforehand. AsimAlsadeh (talk) 20:33, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Bahraini people redirects to Bahrani people, and List of Bahrainis redirects to List of notable Bahranis, which tells me that Wikipedia editors understand that either spelling is used when transliterating from the Arabic. And reliable sources clearly use the spelling "Bahraini" when referring to the ethnicity as well as the nationality. So the lack or presence of an "i" in the term in English doesn't distinguish either way. Accordingly, every comment I have made in this unnecessarily interminable discussion has dealt with and distinguished between ethnic and national meanings. postdlf (talk) 21:54, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


 * That source refers to ethnic Bahrainis (Sunni Arabs, Persians, Bahrani, etc). Moreover, the terms Bahrani بحراني and Bahraini بحريني are two different words and do not have the same meaning which is why they are transliterated differently. Also, redirecting those pages to impertinent articles about the Baharna was not appropriate.AsimAlsadeh (talk) 22:21, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Your comments (such as calling the articles "impertinent") are increasingly making me question your motives regrding this topic. What's your interest or investment in who is identified as Bahraini or Bahrani? postdlf (talk) 23:58, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment. Upon request by AsimAlsadeh, I'm here to clarify the difference between Bahraini and Bahrani.


 * Short answer: Bahraini (plural: Bahrainis) is the nationality in modern use (post 1960s-70s). The second, Bahrani (plural: Baharna/Bahranis) is the one used to refer to the ethnic/sectarian (Shia) group - Sometimes any Shia who originates from the Gulf region is referred to as Bahrani.


 * Long answer: The confusion is present in Arabic language as well. The reason for this is (original research - can't be bothered to search for sources) that Bahrani was the old term used for Bahrain nationals (until 1950s?). Sunnis (who by modern day are never referred to as Bahrani) in 1923 used the word Bahrani to refer to the National Congress they formed to oppose British intervention. Bahrani is arguably the correct Arabic word to use for people who are from Bahrain (regardless if Bahrain is the current small island or the large space of Eastern Arabia + I remember reading from some Lebanese and Egyptian media outlets using the term in recent years to refer to all Bahrainis, but this is rare). I wouldn't say that Rajab family or Sayyids aren't Baharna, because they self-describe themselves as such, and the word doesn't really refer to a single ethnicity; Bahrana are ethnically diverse and their strongest tie appears to be their sect and dialect of Arabic (they of course would always state that they are the original people of Bahrain who belong to ibn Qais, Tamim and Rabia tribes, but would almost always forget that the Sayyids can never belong to these tribes since they trace their ancestry to Muhammed - yet Sayyids self-identify as Baharna). In addition, many British documents written in 1900-1920s which I went through use Shia and Baharna interchangeably, and certainly referred to bin Rajab as Baharna.


 * This is an interesting research in Arabic about how the word Bahrani developed over time (it can be summarized in follows: Bahrani was used to anyone from Eastern Arabia, then it was only used to refer to the ethnic/sectarian group in Bahrain, then it was used to refer to all Bahrainis and finally it was again used to refer to the ethnic/sectarian group).  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  00:06, 18 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica1000 06:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.