Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of palaces in the United States


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__ as not meeting WP:NLIST. The discussion established that there are places in the US that have 'palace' in their names or are referred to as 'palace', but also that there does not appear to be coverage of them as a class in reliable sources. RL0919 (talk) 13:05, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

List of palaces in the United States

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Fails WP:NLIST; no sourcing that speaks of the topic as a class across the United States. The only material that satisfies NLIST is for Hawai'i, but the material is simply a duplicate of List of Hawaiian royal residences. Material for the article was cut and pasted from List of palaces. Also, appears to be original research as incorporates places named as palaces, which are not actually palaces (eg Cliff Palace) or cannot justifiably be called palances (eg Biltmore Estate) other than to denote a site of extreme wealth. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 01:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Architecture, Lists,  and United States of America. Goldsztajn (talk) 01:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't have a problem with this. I added some sourced details to the ones in Texas, since I know something about those, and where to find the sourcing. A lot of Wikipedia is a "copy and paste" of itself. Compared to some of the other similar palace lists, such as those on Category:Lists of palaces by country, this one's not too bad. A lot the others are just lists with maybe a few words as a list intro. At least this editor took the initiative to give a little blurb of explanation beside each one. — Maile  (talk) 21:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I think I'll also go through the Hawaii ones and source them, also. I've done a fair amount of time on Hawaii articles. It was, after all, a kingdom before we overthrew the monarchy. I think a lot in the overall US listings could be beefed up and sourced, if anyone wanted to take the time. — Maile (talk) 22:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I also would agree that this list needs to be cleaned up, as much in here are not palaces. Something that is an official resident of a head of government, does not make it a palace. i.e. the D.C. residences of the President and the Vice President. — Maile  (talk) 01:18, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The problem is larger than clean-up, I would not have sent the article here if that was the case. I prodded this following its creation, but since that was removed no sourcing has been added to satisfy WP:NLIST. My own WP:BEFORE found no reliable sourcing that references the class, other than the already mentioned examples of Hawai'i. Without sources discussing the class, adding individual references does not satisfy the problem that the list is syth/original research. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 04:17, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, I'm in going to continue to do some clean-up. Others can do as they wish on this. — Maile (talk) 04:26, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The article for Palace starts with A palace is a grand residence, often serving as a royal residence or the home for a head of state or some other high-ranking dignitary, such as a bishop or archbishop. The White House thus counts. I reverted your removal of it.   D r e a m Focus  11:21, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I have reverted your revert of my removing the US President's home (the White House) and the Vice President's house as palaces. It has to have been officially named (and sourced as such) a palace or castle, for Wikipedia to list it as a castle. These are official government residences, and were never designated palaces or castles. Wikipedia does not reinvent categories or designated names for official government sites.  These were never designated as palaces. — Maile  (talk) 11:48, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/the-grounds/the-white-house/ At various times in history, the White House has been known as the “President’s Palace,”
 * Also the definition of palace includes "home for the head of a state".  D r e a m Focus  12:08, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per Clarityfiend's overall cleanup and comments below. — Maile (talk) 01:46, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * However that would work out. But I think merging the two would be an ideal solution, retaining the best of both. — Maile  (talk) 13:19, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * FYI, one way or another, getting this topic correct and straightened out for Wikipedia purposes, will be a challenge. Americans tend to dance to their own tunes as to how these things get named. For instance:
 * Scotty's Castle (Calif) Not a real castle, and Scotty never owned it. Nevertheless, it's listed on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places
 * Hearst Castle - formally named La Cuesta Encantada (Spanish for "The Enchanted Hill")
 * Buck Owens Crystal Palace music venue, Bakersfield, CA
 * Cow Palace (Calif)
 * Palace of Fine Arts (San Francisco)
 * Cotton Palace (demolished former exhibition ground, Waco, Texas)
 * The Oil Palace (multi-purpose arena,Texas)
 * San Antonio Rose Palace (sporting events, rodeos, and concerts,Texas)
 * — Maile (talk) 01:07, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Wait, there's more...Bobby's Burger Palace, The Palace of Auburn Hills, Corn Palace (I love Cow Palace!) ... but this is the whole point, this is WP:INDISCRIMINATE, simply having "palace" in the name cannot justify a list article. I disagree that this is solely a problem of US English, the problem is that the US, other than Hawai'i, does not have a collection of buildings that satisfy the understanding of palace as the residence of the head of state (traditionally a monarch). Lots of English speaking countries have "devalued" the meaning of palace, but we can still order articles around theme of buildings that are residences of monarchs/heads of state, we just cannot do that for the US. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 05:58, 14 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep - Although the article seems to have some flaws, they can be fixed, deleting the article won’t fix these issues. The list seems to be a really useful list for people searching for palaces in the USA. User:V.B.Speranza (talk) 14:21, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NLIST. Lists of castles are plentiful out there, but not palaces. There is already a List of Hawaiian royal residences, which accounts for most of the entries on this list. Cliff Palace is most definitely not a palace; it's just a fanciful name for a cliff dwelling. The rest of the entries, along with the Hawaiian list, could go in the castle list's See also section. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:40, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep, the objections seem to be of the "bah humbug!", and "this is outlandish!" variety. I view the weirdness of palaces/castles in the US as a feature, not a bug, of this list. Note also that there are many (over 150) "List of castles in foo" and 27 "List of palaces in foo", showing that the topic is legit. Abductive  (reasoning) 17:06, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. The problem is not one of personal taste; there's policy and guideline problems. First, conflating castles, palaces and opulent estates (or even ordinary dwellings!) is a problem of WP:INDISCRIMINATE.  Second, I have no problem finding reliable sourcing to satisfy *as a class* the topic of palaces in Germany, or France or Italy (or Hawai'i)...but there's no sourcing to satisfy that topic for the United States, so the list fails WP:NLIST and is both WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 21:36, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Americans don't distinguish between palaces and castles properly. As an example, Hearst Castle is a complex of palatial buildings. So, the sourcing may say palace where it means castle and vice versa. Here are some sources: The 19 must-see castles in America (Timeout), The 40 Most Beautiful Castles You Can Visit in the United States (House Beautiful), 22 Gorgeous U.S. Castles That Are Fit for a Fairy Tale (Travel + Leisure). So, the article could be renamed (incorrectly), or it could be improved, but it cannot be deleted. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:57, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting to provide further opportunity for development of evidence that this subject meets WP:NLIST. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BD2412  T 01:24, 16 October 2023 (UTC) Relisting comment: As above. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:32, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep A palace is a unique building and a list of palaces in a country can be an interesting and useful source of information for Wikipedia users. It doesn't violate any Wikipedia guidelines that I know of. Truthanado (talk) 19:40, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep meets our WP:LISTN guide. Lightburst (talk) 00:35, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Relisting comment: Final relist. I see No consensus right now. I just want to be sure that any problems that exist can't be resolved through clean-up, setting an inclusion guidelines or a page title change or a Merger. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 06:10, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment The editing of the article has not resolved the problem that there are no sources that speak of the subject as a class to satisfy WP:NLIST. We still have problems of WP:SYNTH. There are sources which cover Hawai'i as a class (eg Lost Palaces of Hawai'i: Royal Residences of the Kingdom Period), there are also sources which cover colonial government architecture (eg Governor's Houses and State Houses of British Colonial America, 1607-1783), but it is SYNTH/OR to combine these two different types as a class called "palaces" where no source does as such.  Moreover, in terms of the comments above about "castles", we already have List of Gilded Age mansions and List of largest houses in the United States. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 01:58, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * ●Keep- It is a notable topic, meets WP:NLIST, sources exist & can be expanded. PaulGamerBoy360 (talk) 17:50, 24 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep. It is a notable topic, one for which sources undoubtedly exist, an an article that can be expanded. It also appears to me that "keep" has been the clear consensus for weeks now. Why drag it out? Bookworm857158367 (talk) 15:26, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Bookworm857158367 - WP:MUSTBESOURCES - unforutnately no contributor to the discussion has yet cited a reliable source that speaks to the specific subject of this article ("Palaces") as a class, which is necessary to satisfy WP:NLIST. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 03:32, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I don’t have the time or inclination to hunt down references for an articlevI’m not an expert on but I also don’t think it deserves to be deleted. People here are too darned quick to delete interesting articles instead of improving them. This is a thing. A perfunctory Google search turns up: https://www.housebeautiful.com/lifestyle/g15957174/best-castles-united-states/
 * https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/six-castles-you-can-visit-united-states-180974323/ The keep vote stays. Close and keep. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 05:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Leaving aside the conflation of castles with mansions, castles themselves are *not* palaces, unless one intends to ignore WP:INDISCRIMINATE and WP:SALAT. The problem is the lay use of the term "palace" to connote "palatial", signifying excessive or immense. Structures representative of this in the United States are already covered in the lists mentioned above. This article duplicates material already in existence here and remains SYNTH. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 05:53, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I’ve never been a fan of rigid, bureaucratic adherence to policies if they result in indiscriminate deletion of articles that can and should be improved upon instead of deleted. I said I'm not an expert but the fact that a couple of magazine articles are at the top of a 10 second Google search certainly suggests that there are additional sources and that it is a topic of interest. Articles for deletion is not the place for cleanup, anyway. Improve instead of delete. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 13:28, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * delete This is a shared name grouping: the Hawai'ian examples are the only ones which a naive reader would imagine qualify. It really tends to collapse into "colonial governor's palaces, Hawai'ian royalty, and some other things", which is hardly the mark of a well-formed grouping, and it comes across as the sort of thing that shows up in your Facebook feed ("Number four will surprise you!"). Mangoe (talk) 18:57, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment I still see no sourcing which overcomes the problems with SYNTH inherent in the list, however, given lay perceptions of the term, as an ATD one possibility might be a redirect to List of largest houses in the United States. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 07:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete. I see no evidence that any sources have considered this group as a group, meaning this fails NLIST. Those asserting that it passes above have not provided any substantive argument as to why this is the case; no sources have been put forward that I can see. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per Vanamonde: I can't find any reliable sources discussing "palaces in the USA" as a topic, and I can't see any compelling argument in this discussion about why this passes LISTN Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:34, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete There simply isn't the sourcing here to define "Palaces in the United States" as a class that could meet NLIST ("a list topic is considered notable ... if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources"). Also, the vast majority of the article is redundant to the Hawai'i article; the ragbag of random other entries doesn't a new article make. Black Kite (talk) 10:01, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom for unclear inclusion criteria and lack of sources. Doczilla  @SUPERHEROLOGIST 17:22, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete I've been sitting on this one for a while, but reviewing it again, a "palace" simply isn't a well-enough-defined thing to list like this. The residences of Hawaiian royalty, which already has an article, certainly fit the traditional definition, but a large ancient dwelling being called a "cliff palace" doesn't actually make it one; governors' mansions simply aren't the same even if they use this term. Moreover, the listed governors' residences in New Mexico, Texas, and Virginia are listed at List of governors' residences in the United States, and those in NC, PR, and GU could be added there as well. Reywas92Talk 19:14, 3 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.