Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of people in Montana history


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to List of people from Montana and/or History of Montana.  —&#8288;Scotty Wong &#8288;— 00:05, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

List of people in Montana history

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Far too broad to make a manageable list. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:28, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people, History,  and Montana.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 09:25, 27 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep - Nom makes a vague case: Too broad to make a manageable list. What is Manageable?  This list has been managed as a WP article since its creation in 2010 - 12 years.  Too broad:  The list has clear inclusion criteria and as far as I can tell is clearly consistent with WP:LISTPEOPLE.  If such vague rationale is accepted for deletion, then just about every other list in the category: Lists of people by association would seem to be too broad and unmanageable.  Specifically, I’d like to see nom state rationale that demonstrates this list does not meet the standard outlined in WP:LISTPEOPLE Mike Cline (talk) 12:07, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Per WP:SALAT, "Lists that are too general or too broad in scope have little value". 150+ years of history equates to a ton of people involved in a hazily defined way ("significant roles"). Clarityfiend (talk) 12:29, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @Mike Cline If you're !voting to keep the article, I would advise you to change your vote to "Keep" as the bot doesn't recognize "Oppose". Regardless of the final outcome, thanks for your hard work on the list and happy to help if needed in fixing the List page (probably best to use the Talk page for that). Cielquiparle (talk) 13:06, 2 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete Too be at all accurate this list would need to be much larger. There is no good explanation for why it is so small, and no clear criteria limiting it to such a small size.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:49, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete vague and without inclusion criteria, duplicative to List of people from Montana and its links like List of governors of Montana. Serves no further purpose. Reywas92Talk 13:44, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete Probably intended to be the list equivalent of WP:OCASSOC, i.e. a "list of people associated with the history of Montana". –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 11:36, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep For the purposes of historical research, I personally rely on list pages like this, but I understand this is AfD and WP:ILIKEIT and WP:USEFUL are not enough of a reason to keep it. The list does need clearer inclusion criteria, so I would propose something like:
 * Notable individuals in Montana history who are discussed *beyond passing mentions* in Montana: A History of Two Centuries by Malone and Roeder (any edition), or
 * Notable individuals listed on the Montana Biographies page of the Montana Historical Society, or
 * * Any individual with two sources verifying that they had a notable role in Montana history who also have Wikipedia pages
 * The reason it is different from List of people from Montana is that it's a chronological list rather than divided up by profession (which can be useful for some things but not when you're trying to quickly cross-reference people by time period). Looking more closely at the page, I do think it requires citations justifying each entry, and some of the copy that is there reads like OR or editorial commentary rather than Wikipedia/encyclopedia voice, but perhaps that could be fixed in due course. I would also strongly advise getting rid of the "come one and all" invitation at the top making it look like anyone is welcome to add anyone to the list; I get the feeling that was fashionable some years ago in Wikipedia, but nowadays people look at it and interpret it to mean that you're trying to build a directory, hence the skepticism. Cielquiparle (talk) 17:42, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Ballpark figures: Let's say there are 100 notable Montanans per year (fewer earlier on, more later). That means the list would have to have 15,000+ entries. See the problem? Clarityfiend (talk) 13:28, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't need to be that kind of list. It's just a curated list of notable people from Montana history (with citations) who have Wikipedia pages, and anyone else who gets added later with a Wikipedia page, who also meets the criteria. It doesn't have to be comprehensive. Also, it's supposed to be a list of "historical figures", so quite frankly, we don't even need anyone from the 21st century. We could even say that the final section only includes people born in the 20th century, who did notable things in the 20th century, even if they died in the 21st century. To be honest, it doesn't seem like the list would be that huge...for Montana. Cielquiparle (talk) 15:12, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * "It doesn't have to be comprehensive"? So now you're adding vague conditions. Who gets to decide?
 * Anyone who did anything notable in the 21st century isn't a "historical figure"? History is the study of the past. Aren't the years 2001-2021 (and part of 2022) part of the past?
 * Also, politicians from just the Democratic (252) and Republican (333) parties alone make a huge list. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:15, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * OK, I've struck criterion 3. So, according to the revised criteria, the people who get to decide are Malone and Roeder (because they wrote one of the definitive reference books on Montana history), and the Montana Historical Society biographies page. (The beauty of using Malone and Roeder is that they've updated the book across multiple editions.) It does mean Evel Knievel would be struck off the current page for now, but at a glance it seems likely that everyone else would stay on the list. It's a finite list of candidates for inclusion, and we could also further manage/restrict the list by saying that anyone included on the list should already have a Wikipedia page. Cielquiparle (talk) 06:42, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 10:26, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep per the reasons outlined above. This doesn't have to be an exhaustive list. "Notable people from Montana" are obviously going to be discussed in any history of Montana, and will be listed in the index. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 16:11, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * P.S. I don't see any policy-based arguments for deletion. Just vague claims of "too broad" or "not useful". 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 07:41, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Too broad is specified in SALAT, as I have noted. And the criteria are all over the place ("significant roles in the exploration and settlement of the region as well as the cultural, economic, military, political, and social development of Montana"), which means, as I have also noted, far, far, far too many people qualify. Also, what is the definition of a "significant" role? Clarityfiend (talk) 11:31, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete Too broad to be of much use, history of what? Native Americans? Aviation? Science? Sports? Oaktree b (talk) 14:33, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Draftify Changing !vote as an alternative to deletion per WP:ATD, especially since page creator is still an active user and a participant in this discussion (which is pretty rare in my experience). List page needs to be reframed and brought in line with more recent Wikipedia standards; otherwise, it will keep popping up at AfD. That said, I don't think it will necessarily require that much more work. (I would start fixing it myself now but would rather discuss with the creator first.) Cielquiparle (talk) 07:33, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - this is a useful way to introduce a history class of secondary school students to do historical research--it helps kide find nearby topics and does not duplicate any other article. Rjensen (talk) 09:45, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It's WP:USEFUL is not a valid reason. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:31, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –  333-blue  at 06:13, 12 July 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   12:46, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge to Lists of people from Montana. "In history" is so vague/unclear that it's hard to imagine it as a reasonable spin-off of the main article. &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 23:27, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing up the main article, History of Montana, as it definitely needs to be taken into consideration with regard to the fate of this List page. I actually thought you were going to suggest "Merge" with History of Montana, as I could see an argument for that as well. Sometimes it happens that the "spinoff" or supporting List page starts to balloon both in prose and in scope, because the main Article page is not doing its job, and you can see how that could have been the case here as well, as the History of Montana page is also in need of some cleanup. I think this is an opportunity to fix both the Article page (as primary) and the List page (whatever its final form), but in the meantime it would be nice to have the List page in Draft space, while we work out how best to fix this (also because it will help in fixing the main Article page whether or not it's technically a "merge"). Cielquiparle (talk) 08:41, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge. I have to agree with Rhododendrites rationale. The topic is far too broad and what is the criteria for inclusion of historical figure? Lightburst (talk) 00:45, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge to where though? I was nearly coming around to merging with List of people from Montana. But the problem with that page is that it's a list of people who happened to have lived in Montana at some point in their lives; they haven't necessarily done anything significant in Montana pre-/territorial/state history. Also, while many of the people from this page are already there, others don't appear to be, and that is a major problem given the lack of inline citations for most of this list page. It's not a straightforward merge.
 * :My inclination now is to merge most of the content from the list back into the History of Montana page, but doing so properly will take time, as the main History page itself needs more work.
 * I am willing to work on performing the merge with the History page and the other List page, and fixing the main History page, but for this reason I am asking to have this page draftified as an alternative to deletion, with the understanding that it will likely end up being deleted after 6 months. Cielquiparle (talk) 05:42, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 * List of people from Montana Lightburst (talk) 21:09, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Merge with List of people from Montana. I realized I'm uncomfortable !voting "merge" when it's slightly complicated, but I accept now that this is probably the simplest and most logical path for the information that lives within this List. Let me know if you need help in merging the list pages. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:06, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge with List of people from Montana. Unnecessary spinoff list with a vague scope. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 13:43, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge As per Cielquiparle. MrsSnoozyTurtle 00:29, 31 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.