Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of personal coats of arms of Presidents of Italy


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Missvain (talk) 02:22, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

List of personal coats of arms of Presidents of Italy

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Trivial intersection, lacks notability. Fram (talk) 08:07, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 08:07, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 08:07, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone  08:11, 23 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep Dswitz10734 (talk) 13:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * because...? Fram (talk) 13:09, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Why don't you nominate all of them at once Category:Armorials of presidents? Is List of personal coats of arms of presidents of the United States notable but those of other nations not?   D r e a m Focus  16:56, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Any actual reason to keep this? There is no reason why these might be notable for one country and not for another, so lumping them all together wouldn't make for a good AfD. If you have actual evidence that for Itay, this is a notable subject, please share it with us. Otherwise, your "keep" is meaningless. Fram (talk) 17:03, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The only references in the American one is one website: https://www.americanheraldry.org/ so not sure what you believe qualifies as notability in this case. The information is probably listed in history books or historical websites for each nation, but you'd have to speak their language to find it.   D r e a m Focus  17:05, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * And here I was thinking this was an AfD for the Italy list. Apparently instead of nominating this one because it lacks notability, I somehow proclaimed that the American one is a notable subject and should be discussed here. Oh well, perhaps I should point out that last week, I already nominated a few other countries, but that I don't want to overwhelm AfD and the editors by starting all these discussions at once. See e.g. Articles for deletion/List of personal coats of arms of Presidents of Iceland and the already deleted Articles for deletion/List of personal coats of arms of Presidents of Ireland? Fram (talk) 17:11, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Why nominate some and not all? They are all basicaly the same.  No sense doing it one at a time.   D r e a m Focus  17:14, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Because notability for one country may be different to notability for another country? In what way is this inquiry relevant for this AfD even? The Italy list won't be more or less notable because I also nominate France or not, surely? The only effect such a group nomination may have is muddying the waters, and getting them all kept because one or two were incorrectly nominated. I don't get your obsession with this reasoning. Fram (talk) 17:18, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Because people like you love to complain about WP:TRAINWRECKs and give "Procedural keeps" if a single item in a bundled AFD is actually notable? Because that gives you even more of an excuse not to give any reasoning in the original comment? Reywas92Talk 18:23, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note that list articles don't follow the same rules as other articles. These are notable awards/honors, and a list of all those that won a notable award is automatically a valid list, as is listing all notable awards someone notable won.  Listing the valid information in this format is acceptable for a list article.   D r e a m Focus  17:08, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * An armorial, a coat of arms, is not "a notable award". It is in many cases not something they "won" at all, but something they simply inherited. In some cases, it is a "prize" which accompanies an award, but it isn't the award. (Even if it were, your "a list of all those that won a notable award is automatically a valid list" is false as well, we have many notable awards for which a list of recipients would be unacceptable, e.g. the Purple Heart is a notable award, but a list (or lists) with all recipients would be swiftly deleted). Fram (talk) 17:16, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * There is already a list of all recipients that have their own Wikipedia articles Purple_Heart.  D r e a m Focus  17:18, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Which is not what you were arguing. We already have a list of all Presidents of Italy, and that one is not up for deletion obviously. The question is why we need another list for this unrelated characteristic. Fram (talk) 17:20, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete Is there anything showing where the coats of arms are used, if there's any official bearing of them? It says several presidents chose to just use the Italian arms, but where is that officially used and what makes it "personal"? Entirely unsourced, and only a few of these are actual personal arms. Einaudi and Segni's matching image appears to be purely original research, combining the Italian arms with the collar of Supreme Order of Christ and purporting that to be the personal arms. I removed the gallery of unsourced images on that page. Reywas92Talk 18:33, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Further, those of Nicola and Segni are just the generic ones for those family named used at it:Armoriale delle famiglie italiane (Dem-Dib) and it:Armoriale delle famiglie italiane (Se): is there evidence they specifically used these, presented in some way when they were president? Oscar Luigi Scalfaro's likewise says it's "ancestral arms" (a variation of which is at it:Oscar Luigi Scalfaro as family arms, added earlier this year so who knows how it was used by him personally!), with a collar for Order of Isabella the Catholic added, just one of many foreign honors it says he received – the same user also made a version for the Order of the Seraphim. Any sources of how this was used in reality??? Honestly I think the creator of this article should be santioned for massive WP:OR violations, and the argument-free keep votes above are a clueless, reflexive embarrassment, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong! Reywas92Talk 18:59, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Fails WP:NOTABLE. If the coats-of-arms are notable, they are notable because of the individuals they belong to, not because those individuals happen to have held the same office. So should be mentioned in the notable individuals' articles, and not spuriously lumped together. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:56, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Unsourced. DrKay (talk) 19:04, 30 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.