Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of places of worship in Greater Vancouver


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   speedy keep. SK#1: nom withdrawn, and no other deletion arguments (non-admin closure) czar   &middot;   &middot;  07:47, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

List of places of worship in Greater Vancouver

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For me this falls under WP:NOTDIR as a repository of loosely associated topics (i.e. buildings that fulfill a function such as hotels) and even some entries seemingly about to be deleted. Unlike other lists that have been independently grouped together such as heritage buildings (List of heritage buildings in Vancouver) or listed buildings or buildings specifically covered a piece of legislature. The references do not support the entries as a recognized group and are arguably a WP:SYNTHESIS of unrelated material about each one. Finally we have Category:Places of worship in Vancouver and Category:Churches in Vancouver -- not that we can't have lists and categories that fulfill the same role but there should be at least a good reason to have both. This AFD is largely tied into discussions at Articles for deletion/Heritage Grill, Articles for deletion/Five Stones Church, and Articles for deletion/Christian Life Assembly. Mkdw talk 07:58, 15 June 2013 (UTC) -- Keep and withdaw - Based upon the subsequent discussion. I think my concerns over WP:NOTDIR have been met and I happily withdraw my nomination provided it's maintenance remains diligent and it doesn't become an indiscriminate list outside WP:CSC for every single worship related building and organization. Mkdw talk 05:51, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete WP:NOTDIR Potentially hundreds of entries, and more since "Greater Vancouver" is the title. I haven't looked to see how many of these are truly notable.  There are many that should have articles, either for architectural or historical or diocesan/HQ reasons.  Theoretically given the title this could also include prayer rooms at the universities and in some hotels and other such places.  Just looking, those extant already (other than Five Stones Church (which is in Category:Churches in Vancouver and shouldn't be) fit the description/parameters just laid down, though if it survives, this list should be broken down by Christian/Uewish/Buddhist/Islamic/Sikh and sundry (Kabalarian Philosophy and Unitarian Church (Vancouver) come to mind, along with other eclectic "churches" on Oak Street's "Religion Row" as well as a huge list of Sikh temples and quite a few new mosques, some of them notable for architectural reasons.  There are many that come to mind that should have articles, including those I've mentioned on Talk:Five Stones Church re New Westminster, but also St. James Shaughnessy, which is a notable classical music venue of many years standing, and others in the Kerrisdale area, the old St James on West 10th (now a gymnastics school and community centre), the very notable United Church in the Japantown/East Cordova area (highly notable architecturally), and lots more, plus the ecclesiastical college chapels at UBC.  And so many others the mind boggles to consider them all as viable for a list, especially when the suburbs are taken into account.  And emphatically underscoring the non-notability of Five Stones Church, given the architectural prominence of those I've listed, and their often impressive histories, and more like them.  Two very notably missing are St. Andrews Wesley United Church and the First Baptist Church (Vancouver) at Burrard & Nelson.Skookum1 (talk) 09:43, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Per WP:CLN, lists are a valid means of navigation and search. The possibility of having a similar category is explicitly not a reason to delete.  Categories are quite unsatisfactory, as the recent case of category:American novelists shows.  The reference to WP:NOTDIR is irrelevant because that tells us not to make pages in the style of a commercial directory such as Yellow Pages.  It does not stop us from having lists as navigational indexes, as these are expected in any decent reference work. Warden (talk) 10:08, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. Evano1van(எவனோ ஓருவன்) 10:13, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Evano1van(எவனோ ஓருவன்) 10:13, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep Per WP:CLN, per Warden. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:15, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment If so, this list should be broken down by faith/sect and a comprehensive list of notable churches, mosques, temples, synagogues, chapels and monasteries should be compiled in redlinks, to "flesh out" the category and the list, so it is as not selective and depopulated as it is; it may be better to break into separate List of churches in British Columbia (with denominational breakdown), List of mosques in British Columbia, List of Sikh temples in British Columbia, List of synagogues in British Columbia and so on - with only genuinely notable items redlinked, the others unlinked, as all places of worship in British Columbia would make too long of a single list and many are just plain not all that notable.  I maintain my vote for now as I feel "places of worship" is far too broad and very minor places of worship of all kinds will make the list too unwieldy, better to break by faith/denomination into separate lists, and to cover as much ground as possible;  In my own region, all the native churches (nearly all Roman Catholic) are notable in some way (some have been burned in recent times, by forest fires or arson, a few are abandoned). Skookum1 (talk) 10:42, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It is more common practice to have lists of places of worship than lists of churches, etc. While I would be glad to see lists of churches, mosques, and Sikh temples come into being, the possibility of creating them does not suggest that this list should be deleted. Neelix (talk) 19:52, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - I was pretty sure this was going to be a NOTDIRECTORY situation, but these are all blue links. This is not a phone book-style listing at all, actually. Valid navigational function for Wikipedia users. Carrite (talk) 13:46, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Inquriy @User:Carrite, User:Kudpung, and User:Colonel Warden. Thank you for your feedback. I am the most concerned with NOTDIR criteria 1 and not criteria 3; the list subject is too loosely affiliating all the entries. Soem of the items on the list are seemingly going to be deleted and the creator proposes merging them into this list. This will ultimately lead to the list having non-notable entries which is acceptable under WP:CSC as long as it's verified as a member of the listed group -- which seems unlikely since I think the subject is overly broad. Has a reliable source recognized each worship place in Vancouver and named them? Probably not considering the number. I won't get into the COI or SPAM issues brought up but I am willing to withdraw my nomination if you do not think the overall subject of the list is not overly broad. Cheers, Mkdw talk 18:51, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - There are several featured lists that closely match this one, including List of places of worship in Brighton and Hove, List of places of worship in Crawley, and List of places of worship in Worthing. These featured lists include many entries that do not have corresponding articles; such should be the case in the Greater Vancouver list as well. Neelix (talk) 19:49, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of British Columbia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:39, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:39, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Someone just added Iglesia ni Cristo, with their church locations on the list, though the article is for the denomination's main article re the Philippines]. If the list survives and expands, inclusion of such links, especially with addresses given, reinforces the notion that this list will become WP:DIR if not regularly managed.Skookum1 (talk) 01:21, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
 * If that is the case, then management and/or protection is the solution, not deletion. Neelix (talk) 18:19, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
 * And splitting it, unless you think a page with 4000 entries is just fine.....Skookum1 (talk) 18:32, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep It is a suitable list article by WP:LISTN and, if the topic is notable (which I find it very hard to believe it is not), then it could also include churches without articles on WP. Thincat (talk) 19:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep but retitle to plural i.e. "Lists of" and content ultimately split to linked sublists split by faith where needed, on the models laid out in the categories associated, noting that Anglican and Catholic and Orthodox churches have separate categories, and cathedrals have their own categories spanning those denominations a similar List of cathedrals in British Columbia might be "needed", but with that name rather than GV alone due to the cathedrals in Victoria; I don't think there are any others than those there and in New West and in Vancouver; Kamloops is a diocese but I've never heard of a cathedral there; maybe there is a cathedral church, dunno. There's a few notable mosques, including the new ones on Canada Way and the one on lower 10th (12th?) in New West, both architecturally notable, and as mentioned there are quite a few Sikh temples that are notable.  I'm wary of limiting this to "Greater Vancouver" even in that term's non-RD sense due to the Mennonite churches in the Valley, some of which are historic and/or architecturally notable, likewise the Sikh temples there and in Mission (the one on South Fraser Way in Clearbrook/Abby is Canada's oldest, for example), and the Mission area has a few monasteries, including a Chinese Buddhist one in Stave Falls as well as the Orthodox one in Dewdney and the famous Westminster Abbey (its church is highly architecturally notable and a Visitor Attraction) (there's also a Trappist or other Dominican or ?? one below the Abbey and a convent there).  There's also a Tibetan Buddhist dzong near Nelson, and the ashrams there of the Emissaries of the Divine Light, and so on.....in the case of filming locations the "in the Vancouver area" phrase was used rather than even saying Lower Mainland, and not just because that term is "unknown outside BC", as someone complained, but because of Squamish and so on, which are not in the Lower Mainland.  The Vancouver-area churches alone, if all in one list, and only notable ones, would still be too big a list if all of the faiths were listed/linked.....and I'm serious, allow in non-notable ones and you're looking at thousands of entries if it were all one list; and this will need management and group monitoring or it will grow like topsy; and issues like that Filipino sect's listing will continue to crop up, also.  Maybe Lists of places of worship in British Columbia as Greater Vancouver/Vancouver area/Lower Mainland would be needed for churches, but mosques, Sikh temples, synagogues etc would be more likely as pan-provincial lists.....Skookum1 (talk) 02:05, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no need for such a move. Consider List of alumni of Jesus College, Oxford, which has many summarized sublists. The "Lists of x" title format is normally reserved for disambiguation-like pages. Neelix (talk) 14:45, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, geez, what's your estimated size of this list, if you're so adamant it has to remain one list? do you have any idea who many notable places of worship there are in Greater Vancouver?  And how would you, being in Nova Scotia as you are, and already fielding two churches here with strong notability challenges, not surprisingly surfacing in the AfDs on them, have any idea of the real notable places of worship in Greater Vancouver, and what they are?  And in British Columbai??  I submit that the number of notable mosques and synagogues is fairly small, as are also "eclectic" faiths like the Mormons, Kabalarians, the Church of the Universal Man, the Unitarians, the Order of the Rosy Cross, and more?  Mennonite and other more traditional, if that's the word, eclectica like the Doukhobors (who do not build churches, or never used to, Dutch Reformed and others, Bethel Temple (a type of Pentecostal) tend not to be in Greater Vancouver (Mennonites in Langley, I think, and Dutch Reformed most definitely; though the Mennonites, Dutch Reformed and Bethels do build large and often architecturally-notable places of worship......instead of creating a list where your creations Five Stones Church and Christian Life Assembly could be added next to truly notable churches and other places of worship, why didn't you create those articles instead of building this list first?  Nest-building, is what I see.  As per those two startups, your sense of proportion and your lack of knowledge of British Columbia are on view, though you may not understand that yet; if you're so hot to trot on places of worship, why haven't you also assayed starts on the truly notable churches in New Westminster, which very much need articles, instead of creating another place for your pet articles to be linked from? Skookum1 (talk) 17:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Please see our guidelines on summary style. I would also appreciate it if discussion would be restricted to article content rather than about editors. As our existing featured lists of places of worship demonstrate, entries should not be restricted to places of worship that are sufficiently notable for their own Wikipedia articles. Neelix (talk) 15:04, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * All you've done with that comment is call into question the validity of the content of those lists.....which probably need culling, like this one will ad nauseam. Above you said they were like disambiguation pages, i.e. lists of links; but if they're not notable they shouldn't have links/articles and shouldn't be listed.Skookum1 (talk) 16:24, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * This is not the place for a discussion of inclusion criteria. Once the article has been either kept or deleted, we can discuss such things on the article's talk page. If you disagree with the inclusion of entries on the featured lists, you are free to start a discussion on their talk pages; I would be grateful if you would inform me of such discussion once they arise. Neelix (talk) 14:49, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, it's NOT the place to discuss inclusion criteria? And why is that?  One of your nest of related articles just got deleted, so you are hardly the one to talk about inclusion criteria and saying this isn't the place for it.  You're defending a list title that you don't even want the contents of discussed here....I'm the one from BC, Neelix, you are 7000 kilometres away and don't know the subject matter of the place you're wanting to make certain articles for and interpret policies in regard to, yet you have shown your sense of priorities re notability and inclusion, and also on geographic area, are severely lacking; and as far as I know have never been been to BC, or given your creation of articles now widely commented upon as non-notable, and saying notability and articles isn't a requirement for list inclusion, is wildly at odds with both WP:N and WP:LIST}}.  Entries on lists must have articles to be included, or sections of articles, the exceptions are for things that will not have articles, but which are notable for classification reasons, such as the lists of historic places and heritage places where individual houses and such do not and will not have articles; they are not directories of every house, or OR claims of notability such as "certain churches"..... [[WP:NOTDIR also applies, obviously.  And as you've noticed, I'm the one who's gone to the bother of adding the notable churches that were blatantly missing from this list, while you've been - and again here - defending the inclusion of non-notable ones, and saying they don't need links to be listed.  And don't snipe at me for criticizing you, I'm criticizing your arguments as shallow and contradictory and self-justifying.  And irrelevant - and evasive/deflective.Skookum1 (talk) 02:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment per my changed vote to Keep, which is conditional on collegial maintenance of this page and the patrolling of it for non-notable and also external items like Iglesia ni Christo, and with my stated reservations about the size of this list and how much better demoninational lists will prevent "bloating", the title is unsuitable due to the nature of BC's religious geography, particularly the Bible Belt of the Fraser Valley, but also because of the geographically spread out and diverse nature of religion in BC, which is often not in Vancouver. A mammoth List of places of worship in British Columbia could exist on the same premises you are defending the singular "list" here, and opposing a split.  The meaningful division within British Columbia that should apply, if at all, is List of places or worship in the Lower Mainland, or, as with the film locations list, List of places of worship in the Vancouver area.  "Mainland/Southwest" is a Development Region and not used so far for regional subdivisions, but a list encompassing it would include all the native churches (many very notable such as the Church of the Holy Cross (Skatin) and many others which are notable; the Mainland/Southwest region comprises the Sunshine Coast, Greater Vancouver, Squamish-Lillooet and Fraser Valley Regional Districts.  I'd rather see, knowing BC and its natural subdivisions better thna you do, or the people who created the Wiki-system of organizing BC by regional district, the Lower Mainland title brought into use instead of "Greater Vancouver", partly because it would be able to include the notable and often very large Mennonite and other churches of the Fraser Valley, many important Sikh temples, and the monasteries in Mission previously mentioned.  Sacred places of the Sto:lo peoples also come to mind....Skookum1 (talk) 17:53, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep and rename to List of places of worship in Lower Mainland or List of places of worship in the Southwest Mainland of British Columbia (the latter term so as to include the Sechelt Peninsula, Fraser Valley and Pemberton-Squamish-Whistler; the former is from Lions Bay to Yale). Sublists of large denominations can be collapsible tables as on List of communities in British Columbia.  I see the point of this list now, but not any relevance at all to limiting it artificially to the metropolis when adjoining towns and minor regions have notable places of worship, i.e. the monasteries in and near Mission, the important gurdwara in Abby, and so on.  I'm uncertain about including the church in Skatin though it does fit in the latter name, though not in the former; it's in the historic "old" part of the Lillooet Country but is in fact in the Fraser Valley Regional District, and in the New Westminster Land District.  The Christian sublists could also be "broken up" by municipality, though I'm not sure that's a good idea or relevant.  The point is that if this list is to exist at all, limiting it to Greater Vancouver (when its creator doesn't even know what the boundaries of that are, and btw they're not quite the same as that of the GVRD) leaves out important places that would be "singletons" and orphaned from the list, despite their proximity to its current name/definition.....Skookum1 (talk) 02:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.