Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of prime ministers of New Zealand by date of birth


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. The majority of this discussion surrounds the best way to organize all of this information (i.e. separate articles vs. including it all in one table). There was some minimal discussion about whether or not the individual subjects of each list are notable enough for a standalone list, but no strong agreement on that. Overall, there are slightly more delete votes than keep votes (10-8), but I don't think that there is strong enough agreement in the discussion to justify deleting four articles.

My personal opinion would be to discuss this further as part of a merge discussion rather than an AfD (where the stakes are higher), and perhaps investigate whether all of these various list articles about New Zealand PM birth/death statistics could be combined into a single List of prime ministers of New Zealand by birth/death statistics, or something along those lines. That might assuage the concerns about the main New Zealand PM list article becoming too bloated if this information were all included in it.  —&#8288;Scotty Wong &#8288;— 22:10, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

List of prime ministers of New Zealand by date of birth

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Batch nomination: This is all information which could without difficulty be included in the List of prime ministers of New Zealand (via a sortable table or something); without the need for all of these single-issue content forks (for most of which the information is already included in the main list anyway; the rest might as well be trivia). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:42, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Engr.  Smitty   Werben 03:48, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Engr.  Smitty   Werben 03:48, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletion discussions. Engr.  Smitty   Werben 03:48, 31 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete all per nom. All non-trivial content could be included on the List of prime ministers of New Zealand article. Ajf773 (talk) 04:02, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment: Adding the information in these articles to List of prime ministers of New Zealand is possible, but the table in that article is already quite wide, and in particular the images of burial places would be unbalancing. I am no great expert on tables, but given that the table contains sections for Colonial Secretaries, Premiers and Prime Ministers, and the Government column in many cases spans more than one prime minister, I don't think adding the ability to sort by column is going to work. If my misgivings are justified, then this is effectively a proposal to delete this content rather than merge it.- gadfium 04:21, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment: I'm curious why these would be considered trivial while the same such articles about UK Prime Ministers are not. And US Presidents have a million different list articles about them, there's an article about their facial hair for goodness sake. --Pokelova (talk) 04:52, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * There is research about the connection between hirsuteness and electability. It's America! Clarityfiend (talk) 06:03, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment: I'm with Pokelova on this one; it's hard to know what people consider trivial, or whether people may have a genuine interest in the burial places of former prime-ministers. gadfium is right that the existing table will get very wide with the extra information added. It's also clumsy inserting personal information about the prime ministers in that table, because it has multiple rows for the same people, when they formed multiple governments. We shouldn't be biased against New Zealand simply because it's a little island state on the far side of the universe; it's still a major English-speaking country and has the right to proper coverage in Wikipedia. For this reason, I'm leaning towards keep, or at least deal with this lot one by one rather than batch-delete, so only the truly pointless get deleted. Elemimele (talk) 07:21, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment: Some, at least, of these are arguably trivial, but (as previous commenters suggest) if they are trivial for NZ then the same sort of articles for other countries are probably trivial too. Rather than this batch nomination by country, it would be better have batch nominations by type of list, such as burial places: List of burial places of New Zealand prime ministers, List of burial places of prime ministers of the United Kingdom, List of burial places of justices of the Supreme Court of the United States, List of burial places of presidents and vice presidents of the United States. Nurg (talk) 02:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The solution to the WP:ALLORNOTHING (which is not a convincing argument why this shouldn't be deleted) is maybe to do a batch nomination of these too; the problem is there are apparently so many of this kind of lists I'm not even aware of the existence of most of them... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 13:28, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. It is stated below that List of burial places of New Zealand prime ministers does not really meet WP:LISTN – this is part of Notability, which takes no account of WP's systemic biases. Avoiding a lengthy explanation, I'll just say that I think there is country-based systemic bias that favours some large countries over small countries. (As is the case with systemic biases generally, this is no reflection on any individual.) Nurg (talk) 08:25, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. Not totally convinced that all of these articles can be merged into the List of prime ministers of New Zealand article without making it look like a complete mess. I certainly think that the List of prime ministers of New Zealand by age deserves to remain intact as it is, but I'm still on the fence about the other ones. Just simply merging all of them into one isn't the right solution here though, as I'm sure that's the reason why most of these articles were created in the first place, because it adds way too much clutter to just one article. Green Hook 1224 (talk) 16:03, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep, as no one has been able to reassure me that a merge into List of prime ministers of New Zealand would be possible without making that list a huge mess. The List of burial places of New Zealand prime ministers in particular would unbalance the target. List of prime ministers of New Zealand by place of birth has a completely different structure to the target. List of prime ministers of New Zealand by age has already had List of prime ministers of New Zealand by time in office merged into it, and it would be possible to consider merging part of List of prime ministers of New Zealand by date of birth into that. That should be a separate proposal as much of the content of the date of birth list would be lost.- gadfium 19:55, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * List_of_prime_ministers_of_New_Zealand already includes birth and death year (this could be expanded to the full date if one so wishes); and "by age" is not a significant categorisation (it's statistical trivia; and it's easily deducible from the birth/death dates). That leaves "burial place", which is not really a subject meeting LISTN (there's no reliable sources which discuss former NZ PM's as a function of their burial place); nor is it something that is important to the notability of the lists figures. So basically you have three of these which could be merged, but which don't need to because there is not much content to merge (simply expanding the dates is not particularly difficult nor would it pose problems with history and attribution, since a date is simple data). So all titles really should be deleted, as I was saying. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:36, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. For the reasons given by Nurg above. Fabio 7654 23:33, 3 September 2021 (UTC) — Fabio 7654 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Delete - There's way too many of these types of list articles. There's truck loads of'em related to US presidents & US vice presidents. GoodDay (talk) 01:27, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete These are arbitrary statistics and I have been unable to find enough reliable sources that focus on the burial places of NZ Prime ministers etc as per general notability. We do not need to keep all the info and I do not think the argument that a combined list will be large justifies overturning notability and other Wiki rules. As long as who was governor general when the PM was born makes the finial list I would have thought we would all be happy? Dushan Jugum (talk) 04:14, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete As per nom. WP:LISTCRUFT. DerbyCountyinNZ  (Talk Contribs) 00:27, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep all These pages were created so that people can't flood the main articles of these politicians nor the List of prime ministers of New Zealand article by writing about each and all of these subjects. It is still just fine to keep them as they are. 2001:8003:24A4:4700:74DF:850F:FE8B:A6C3 (talk) 18:35, 7 September 2021 (UTC) — 2001:8003:24A4:4700:74DF:850F:FE8B:A6C3 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seddon talk 23:47, 7 September 2021 (UTC) *Keep passes WP:NLIST and WP:GNG. 2001:8003:24AF:6E00:242B:FC1:449A:FDFD (talk) 08:12, 10 September 2021 (UTC) — 2001:8003:24AF:6E00:242B:FC1:449A:FDFD (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Delete. Relevant information can be moved elsewhere.2601:241:300:B610:9D6F:CC58:F488:4CEC (talk) 02:48, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete all for failing WP:NLIST. None of these are lists in the real world. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:29, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete WP:HTRIVIA-- rsjaffe 🗩 🖉 23:12, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Struck as duplicate vote by editor logging in with a different IP. DerbyCountyinNZ  (Talk Contribs) 11:13, 16 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep Others have given strong reasons; the largest factor to me is the overall purpose of Wikipedia. I sought out this information specifically as I was curious if Ardern is the youngest ever PM to be in office. Without these pages, finding that information would have been a lot more difficult. The main purpose of Wikipedia is easily accessible information. It is clear that this information is sought out, that it meets Wikipedia's guidelines to remain, and is a generally useful page which should definitely not be removed and is best exhibited independently. Poida 0122 (talk) 10:56, 13 September 2021 (UTC) — Poida 0122 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Delete per nom.4meter4 (talk) 02:26, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete all - these highly overlapping articles would all be made redundant by a simple sortable table. MrsSnoozyTurtle 06:23, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep List of prime ministers of New Zealand by age, Delete others. Date of Birth is included in the Age article, which also contains various other statistics which are useful but which would clutter the primary List of Prime Ministers of New Zealand article. The remaining two articles are fairly small, with little benefit to having the information all on one page as opposed to the articles of the individual PMs, especially when compared to the Age article. Turnagra (talk) 07:44, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep Mostly agree with Nurg and feel these pass WP:NLIST and WP:GNG. Kiwichris (talk) 05:21, 20 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.