Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of professional American football players in war


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was Delete. 1st-AFD is not a vote; 2nd-we have a WP:OCAT that guides us to "Avoid intersections of two traits that are unrelated, even if some person can be found that has both traits."; so do we have an article about American football players in war? do they fight differently? no. do they play football differently? no. What makes this intersection distinctive as opposed to List of American dentists in war or List of American lawyers in war or List of American landscapers in war? Nothing. So, it looks like OCAT as per most of the delete comments. The keep comments are lots of entries on the list means not trivial (which is something we are admonished against by WP:OCAT like Celebrity gamers which could be well populated), the notability of 1 person Pat Tilman which is a poor reason to create a list to highlight him, lack of references shouldn't mean deletion (misses the reason for deletion), and some suspicion of liberal editors which needs no further consideration. In toto, the deletion rationale and policy far outweigh the keep position demonstrating consensus, regardless of the "vote" count. Carlossuarez46 21:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

List of professional American football players in war

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Wikipedia is not a repository of links. Cross-section of two unrelated areas of information. Corvus cornix 23:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment: The Hall of Fame drew a relation Canuckle 00:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. For it to be "unrelated", there seems to be a lot of names on the page. It's significant and it's not really dupilicable in any other part of Wikipedia. Smashville 00:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete unless it can be expanded to a sourced, prose list, and explain it's notabilty. Most players of every sport was in the service in one form or another during World War II, so it's nothing special itself. I'm also not a fan of taking info already used in websites such as the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 01:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Looking at the link, 995 former NFL players served in war, a category seems better instead. Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 03:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep, because of the link Canuckle provided and also because of all the attention devoted to Pat Tilman's service. Sincerely, --  Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 02:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * All the mention can be listed in the Pat Tillman article not here. Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 03:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment How about a list of the ones that became casualties of war? --Pupster21 Talk To Me 12:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep I don't think this page should become a memorial to Pat Tillman. If that's what it's real intent is for, it should be renamed or revisited here.  But, I do think this page needs better references, dates or somthing more then a splattering of names under subheadings.  No doubt that this page needs work; however, all starter articles do.  -- Blind  Eagle  talk ~ contribs  19:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Trivial list, also borderline non-npov/non a memorial. Dannycali 19:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. No one has established that NFL players' military service is notable (aside from Pat Tillman's, which can be covered in Pat Tillman).  There are a lot of football players, so a lot of them served in the military--no big surprise.  I'm sure other athletes have served as well.  The one link that's been offered is a puff-piece by a football organization along the lines of, look at us, we're so patriotic.  Unless someone can find a neutral source saying that says that this is a notable intersection, it should be deleted. Calliopejen1 22:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, a category would obviously be superior to a list because there are nearly 1000 examples. But just looking at Category:NFL player military veterans (as opposed to Category:NFL players plus Category:Military veterans -- or whatever the exact categories are) shows the absurdity of this. Calliopejen1 22:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Weak delete As a PFRA member, I ought to be voting to keep, but this is the basic indiscriminate list that asks the reader to click on the blue links and hope to possibly find out about an NFL (or in the case of Bob Kalsu) AFL player who served in war or was killed in war. While an article about pro athletes who served their country in war would be notable, this isn't it. Mandsford 22:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I just checked the PFRA website, I likely joining as well. Thanks for the link Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 01:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * KeepIs this another liberal editor's attempt to rewrite history to meet their agenda or to erase the credibility of serving one's country? Many of these men laid their careers aside to serve during wartime. This is notable and should be out here for the public to learn about. There is more to life than football and these men, their sacrafice, and courage should be posted for future generations to learn from. But what the hell do I know about it? I only served and spent the majority of my 20's away from home because I felt there was something bigger than me worth protecting.Mustang60 16:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Is this another liberal editor's attempt to rewrite history to meet their agenda or to erase the credibility of serving one's country? No, it is not.  Please read WP:AGF.  And I am a veteran.  Why haven't you created List of actors in war, List of psychiatrists in war and List of left handed cosmeticians in war?  Are the sacrifices and courage of those people any less than those of football players?  Corvus cornix 21:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Are the sacrifices and courage of those people any less than those of football players? Not at all, and not what I am saying. Is this another liberal editor's attempt to rewrite history to meet their agenda. This is not a good faith issue, stating fact. I have dealt with this before. If Wikipedia is to be utilized as a teaching tool, then I see no reason to can this. I believe there is a powerful message that people can learn from seeing that men sacraficed their well payed jobs to serve the greater good of all. I don't see where it is POV. It is simply stating a fact that hey these guys served in wartime and you may want to check their bios.Mustang60 21:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please point to a single person who has said that this list is "POV". The point is that it's not encyclopedic, any more than the other examples I listed above.  And I will kindly ask you to stop making personal attacks and attempting to assume people's agendas, as you will be wrong.  Enough is enough.  Corvus cornix 03:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it is a great reference tool. If you are reading about Tillman, for example, then want to learn more about other football players who served you have a link to work with. Pound sand.Mustang60 19:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:USEFUL. Corvus cornix 20:43, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * See our policies on personal attacks, on calling people "liberal editors to meet their agenda" the reason you gave above isn't a reason for keeping nither. Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 01:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact is that the reason this article is here is due to what Pat Tillman did. His actions are a rarity in this world and what happended to him has made this even more noteworthy. I believe this is a great quick reference tool for those studying American Wars and football to learn something about someone that they did not know before. It also outlines the fact that there were those in the NFL long before Tillman that sacrafice fame and fortune to pursue what they felt was a greater cause. What is wrong with having the ability to do research on Pat Tillman and being able to hit a quick link at the bottom to take you to a page that lists other football players that served in war. Heck there is even a Medal of Honor reciepient among this group. I think it is an excellent quick link to enable someone to learn more.Mustang60 02:42, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Contrary to popular belief, "liberal" is not an insult.... BTW, Jaranda, check out the PFRA Forum... great organization. Mandsford 02:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * liberal by it's self isn't, but liberal editor with personal agenda can be considered as one. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 18:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep Needs more references but that's not a reason for deletion. Nick mallory 03:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.