Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of rallies for the 2016 Donald Trump presidential campaign


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Based on my reading, it seems like there are a few arguments both pro and anti deletion. On the pro deletion side we have concerns that the list violates WP:NOTNEWS and is poorly written, that it is an indiscriminate collection of events in violation of WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE with unclear inclusion criteria ("what is a rally?") and a redundant fork of Timeline of the Donald Trump presidency (2019 Q1) and Donald Trump 2016 presidential campaign and not convered as a group by independent sources. In part because of the forking issue, some people are proposing mergers to the two Donald Trump articles, of varying selectivity. A similar list of Democratic rallies was deleted at AFD and is cited as a precedent by some participants.

On the keep side, we have the points that the lists are not unduly large and that there have been no problems with the inclusion criteria, that the list topic is in fact covered by independent sources (unlike the Democratic rallies article), that NOTNEWS does not apply as they are historical lists and also covered by academic sources and that they are useful. There is a secondary argument against merging that the merged content would be unduly long on the merge targets. There are 7 delete arguments (some alternatively advocate a merge) and 5 keep arguments, by headcount.

Overall it seems like for each delete or merge argument there is an equally compelling keep argument (useless vs. useful, academic topic vs. NOTNEWS, indiscriminate list with vague inclusion criteria vs. topic that has been discussed with examples in an overarching manner, content fork vs. valid spinout, can be covered on other articles vs. would become unduly large), as well as an argument that the Democratic list cited as a precedent had no overarching coverage and is thus different. 7 delete vs. 5 keep is likewise closer to an even split than to a delete consensus. Reywas92's points could be worth a follow up as they were not discussed in depth, but for the delete (or merge)-or-not question this seems like a no consensus case. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:05, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

List of rallies for the 2016 Donald Trump presidential campaign

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Wikipedia is not news. Growing consensus in a recent AfD was that these two lists of rallies—the only such articles—list events indiscriminately and should also be nominated. They're better suited for a wiki that isn't an encyclopedia.

czar 00:51, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions.  czar  00:51, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions.  czar  00:51, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions.  czar  00:51, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete What is a rally? Exactly. The definition changes based on the person. The list is pretty useless anyway.  Squeeps10 Talk to meMy edits 01:31, 3 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep The lists are not unmanagebly large, and there has been no dispute on the pages about what is a rally. This pages are actually quite popular, and is thus of benefit to our readers. Although news may cover the content, NOTNEWS is inapplicable as they are historical lists. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 01:47, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep; while I don't want to delve into politics in this AfD discussion, the list is still useful. Seconding Graeme Barlett's point that WP:NOTNEWS cannot be applied. Utopes (talk) 04:58, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete/merge Timeline of the Donald Trump presidency (2019 Q1), etc. already mention rallies held during the presidency. It's an excessive crufty compendium of routinely expected events that is an unnecessary content fork of that and Donald Trump 2016 presidential campaign. Reywas92Talk 05:02, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and because no independent source considers them as a group. Election debates are much more significant than rallies, yet we don't have lists of those. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:30, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Cunard (talk) 09:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Keep both per the significant coverage in reliable sources. The subject passes Notability, which says, "One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list." I will show below that "rallies for the 2016 Donald Trump presidential campaign" and "post-election Donald Trump rallies" have been treated as a "a group or set by independent reliable sources". Sources   The article notes about the study methodology: "Rallies were defined as events that (i) occurred after Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton declared their candidacies on June 16, 20158, and April 12, 20159, (ii) occurred before the Presidential election on November 8, 2016, (iii) were open invitation, (iv) featured a speech by candidates Trump or Clinton, and (v) were not on the same day as a party primary election in the same state as the rally. We focused on cities that had populations greater than 200,000 based on United States Census Bureau estimates for 2015, because few smaller cities make assault data publicly available online." The study's conclusion was: "Assaults increased on days when cities hosted Donald Trump's rallies during the 2016 Presidential election campaign." The article has a table of Trump and Clinton rallies considered in the study. The Trump rallies considered were: Baton Rouge, LA: 2/11/2016Cincinnati, OH: 7/6/2016, 10/13/2016Colorado Springs, CO: 7/29/2016, 9/17/2016, 10/18/2016<li>Columbus, OH: 11/23/2015, 3/1/2016, 8/1/2016</li><li>Dallas, TX: 9/14/2015, 6/16/2016</li><li>Denver, CO: 7/29/2016, 11/5/2016</li><li>Fayetteville, NC: 8/9/2016</li><li>Fort Worth, TX: 2/26/2016</li><li>Kansas City, MO: 3/12/2016</li><li>Las Vegas, NV: 10/30/2016</li><li>Louisville, KY: 3/1/2016</li><li>Mesa, AZ: 12/16/2015</li><li>Milwaukee, WI: 4/4/2016</li><li>Minneapolis, MN: 11/6/2016</li><li>New Orleans, LA: 3/4/2016</li><li>Pittsburgh, PA: 4/13/2016</li><li>Raleigh, NC: 12/4/2015, 7/5/2016, 11/7/2016</li><li>Richmond, VA: 6/10/2016</li><li>Sacramento, CA: 6/1/2016</li><li>Spokane, WA: 5/7/2016</li><li>St. Louis, MO: 3/11/2016</li><li>Virginia Beach, VA: 10/22/2016</li></ol>The journal article is the subject of a The New York Times article here.</li> <li> The article discusses memorable moments at these Trump rallies:<ol><li>Bluffton, South Carolina</li><li>Mobile, Alabama</li><li>Birmingham, Alabama</li><li>Myrtle Beach, South Carolina</li><li>Mt. Pleasant, South Carolina</li><li>Reno, Nevada</li><li>Pensacola, Florida</li><li>Las Vegas, Nevada</li><li>Fort Worth, Texas</li><li>Huntsville, Alabama</li><li>Orlando, Florida</li><li>Fayetteville, North Carolina</li><li>Dayton, Ohio</li><li>Colorado Springs, Colorado</li><li>Wilmington, North Carolina</li><li>Sunrise, Florida</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses Trump's promotion and frequent exaggeration of his campaign rallies' crowd sizes regarding these rallies:<ol><li>Springfield, Ohio</li><li>Toledo, Ohio</li><li>Phoenix, Arizona</li><li>Melbourne, Florida</li><li>Geneva, Ohio</li><li>Tampa, Florida</li><li>Tallahassee, Florida</li><li>Sanford, Florida</li><li>Charlotte, North Carolina</li><li>Mobile, Alabama</li><li>Madison, Alabama</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses violent incidents at these Trump rallies:<ol><li>Las Vegas, Nevada</li><li>Dallas, Texas</li><li>San Jose, California</li><li>San Diego, California</li><li>Costa Mesa, California</li><li>Bridgeport, Connecticut</li><li>Albany, New York</li><li>Tucson, Arizona</li><li>Fayetteville, North Carolina</li><li>Louisville, Kentucky</li><li>Radford, Virginia</li></ol>This list is cited on page 62 of the 2017 book The Monstrous Discourse in the Donald Trump Campaign: Implications for National Discourse published by Lexington Books.</li> </ol>

<ol> <li> The article discusses the rallies at which Trump has called for violence:<ol><li>Kansas City, Missouri</li><li>St. Louis, Missouri</li><li>Fayetteville, North Carolina</li><li>Michigan</li><li>Las Vegas, Nevada</li><li>Cedar Rapids, Iowa</li><li>Birmingham, Alabama</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses violence at these Trump rallies:<ol><li>Virginia</li><li>Miami, Florida</li><li>Dallas, Texas</li><li>Worcester, Massachusetts</li><li>Alabama</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses rallies at which Trump has supported violence:<ol><li>Bloomington, Illinois</li><li>Fayetteville, North Carolina</li><li>Cedar Rapids, Iowa</li><li>Florida</li><li>Las Vegas</li><li>central Illinois</li><li>Worcester, Ohio</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses rallies at which Trump has encouraged violence:<ol><li>Alabama</li><li>Las Vegas</li><li>Michigan</li><li>North Carolina</li><li>St Louis</li><li>Kansas City, Missouri</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses rallies at which there were cocky young men and few protesters:<ol><li>Houston, Texas</li><li>Missoula, Arizona</li><li>Mesa, Arizona</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses campaign rallies at which Trump is sticking to the script in the final days of the 2016 campaign:<ol><li>Atkinson, New Hampshire</li><li>Hershey, Pennsylvania</li><li>Pensacola, Florida</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses Trump's encouragement of violence at these rallies:<ol><li>St. Louis, Missouri</li><li>Fayetteville, North Carolina</li><li>Oklahoma</li><li>Las Vegas, Nevada</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses violence at these Trump rallies:<ol><li>Miami, Florida</li><li>Birmingham, Alabama</li><li>Fayetteville, North Carolina</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses protests and violence at these Trump rallies:<ol><li>Louisville, Kentucky</li><li>Fayetteville, North Carolina</li><li>Orlando, Florida</li><li>Las Vegas, Nevada</li><li>Concord, North Carolina</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses The Atlantic journalists observations ("I can attest that Trump voters are not ready to concede a monopoly on outrage. They are stoked by Trump’s dystopian portrayal of a socialist America under radical far-left Democrats—a version of the country where jobs have been killed and Medicare destroyed to fund benefits for migrants pouring across open borders, where drug dealers and MS-13 killers take over sanctuary cities.") after traveling to or watching these rallies:<ol><li>Fort Myers, Florida</li><li>Indianapolis</li><li>Chattanooga</li><li>Columbia, Missouri</li><li>Huntington, West Virginia</li><li>Belgrade, Montana</li><li>Pensacola, Florida</li><li>Macon, Georgia</li><li>Cleveland</li><li>Fort Wayne, Indiana</li><li>Cape Girardeau, Missouri</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses violence or Trump's encouragement of violence at these Trump rallies:<ol><li>Cedar Rapids</li><li>Warren, Michigan</li><li>Fayetteville, North Carolina</li><li>Birmingham, Alabama</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses the large number of Trump rallies held within the last four months of October 2018:<ol><li>Minnesota (twice)</li><li>Mississippi</li><li>Florida</li><li>Pennsylvania (twice, including Wednesday evening)</li><li>Tennessee</li><li>Nevada</li><li>Ohio</li><li>West Virginia (twice)</li><li>Kansas</li><li>Iowa</li><li>Montana (twice)</li><li>South Carolina</li><li>Indiana</li><li>North Dakota</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses the 2018 midterm Trump rallies:<ol><li>October 24: Mosinee, Wisconsin</li><li>October 26: Charlotte, North Carolina</li><li>October 27: Murphysboro, Illinois</li><li>October 31: Fort Myers, Florida</li><li>November 1: Columbia, Missouri</li><li>November 2: Indianapolis, Indiana</li><li>November 2: Huntington, West Virginia</li><li>November 3: Belgrade, Montana</li><li>November 3: Pensacola, Florida</li><li>November 4: Chattanooga, Tennessee</li><li>November 4: Macon, Georgia</li><li>November 5: Cape Girardeau, Missouri</li><li>Fort Wayne, Indiana</li><li>Cleveland, Ohio</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses the 2018 midterm Trump rallies:<ol><li>Fort Meyers, Florida</li><li>Columbia, Missouri</li><li>Cape Girardeau, Missouri</li><li>Florida</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses the 2018 midterm Trump rallies:<ol><li>Wheeling, West Virginia</li><li>Johnson City, Tennessee</li></ol></li> <li> The article discusses the 2018 midterm Trump rallies:<ol><li>Fort Meyers, Florida</li><li>Pensacola, Florida</li><li>Indianapolis, Indiana</li><li>Fort Wayne, Indiana</li><li>Columbia, Missouri</li><li>Cape Girardeau, Missouri</li><li>Huntington, West Virginia</li><li>Bozeman, Montana</li><li>Chattanooga, Tennessee</li><li>Macon, Georgia</li><li>Cleveland, Ohio</li></ol></li> </ol>

There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow the subject to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 09:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)</li></ul>
 * The 20 sources I provided above collectively cover both "rallies for the 2016 Donald Trump presidential campaign" and "post-election Donald Trump rallies". The subject does not violate What Wikipedia is not because it has been the subject of academic study. A July 2018 article published in the journal Epidemiology titled "Assaults on Days of Campaign Rallies During the 2016 US Presidential Election" studied 31 Trump rallies and concluded "Assaults increased on days when cities hosted Donald Trump's rallies during the 2016 Presidential election campaign." The subject does not violate What Wikipedia is not because it meets none of the four categories listed: It is not "Summary-only descriptions of works", "Lyrics databases", "Excessive listings of unexplained statistics" or "Exhaustive logs of software updates". Regarding Articles for deletion/2020 Democratic Party presidential rallies: Whereas the list Trump rallies articles pass Notability, "2020 Democratic Party presidential rallies" does not since it has not been discussed as a set by reliable sources. Cunard (talk) 09:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Pinging editors with at least five edits to List of rallies for the 2016 Donald Trump presidential campaign:, , , , , , , and . Cunard (talk) 09:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Pinging editors with at least five edits to List of post-election Donald Trump rallies:, , , , , , , and . Cunard (talk) 09:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Your sources make an argument that we could have a prose article discussing Donald Trump's calls for violence, or an overview deliberating various aspects of Donald Trump's rallies (see Donald_Trump_2016_presidential_campaign), but not necessarily that a context-free chronological listing of venues and attendance estimates is an appropriate Wikipedia article. Reywas92Talk 19:04, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Notability says, "One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list." The sources provided above clearly demonstrate that Trump rallies "has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources" and thus is "appropriate for a stand-alone list". The sources talk about Trump rallies as a group in multiple situations: violence at a list of rallies, memorable moments at a list of rallies, crowd sizes at a list of rallies, and a list of 2018 midterm rallies. That prose articles can be created about different aspects of Trump's rallies does not negate the clear evidence that "rallies for the 2016 Donald Trump presidential campaign" and "post-election Donald Trump rallies" pass Notability. Cunard (talk) 20:02, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge and delete selectively. All these “rallies” are not notable and y’all know it. This article is a mess. Some can stand to be merged into his 2016 campaign article. The rest—delete. Trillfendi (talk) 16:36, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete Same as here. A summary of the content could be added to other relevant articles. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:36, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The guideline Stand-alone lists says: "Lists are commonly written to satisfy one of the following sets of criteria: ... Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria. These lists are created explicitly because most or all of the listed items do not warrant independent articles: for example, List of Dilbert characters or List of paracetamol brand names. Such lists are almost always better placed within the context of an article on their 'parent' topic. Before creating a stand-alone list consider carefully whether such lists would be better placed within a parent article." That the individual rallies are not notable is not a valid reason to delete the list of rallies. These lists are not better placed within a parent article like Donald Trump 2016 presidential campaign. They would be too long for the parent articles so they are valid spinouts into independent articles. Cunard (talk) 20:02, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. Perfectly good spin out about histrionic and historic events. Please don't make me vomit by making me argue any more. Bearian (talk) 20:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I posted a notification about this AfD here at Talk:Donald Trump. Cunard (talk) 05:31, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep as per Cunard's rationale. May His Shadow Fall Upon You     Talk  13:48, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete – It looks more like a directory of news events suitable for an inclusion on Wikinews. The question is not whether the list is useful or just an indiscriminate collection of news. The question is whether there is any worthwhile encyclopedic content, and I agree with the others saying that this list could be merged with Donald Trump 2016 presidential campaign. For me, Mr. Trump's rallies are generally no different from and no more historic than any that I have seen, so unless anyone can demonstrate how this list is encyclopedic, why the rallies are particularly noteworthy, and ultimately why we should keep the list, I am not convinced that it should stay. I would not be surprised if it also suffers from content forking of some other article such as the one it could be merged with. Gamingforfun 3 6 5 14:27, 6 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.