Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of restaurants in Wales


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Salvio giuliano 20:09, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

List of restaurants in Wales

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

This is a clear case of an attempted restaurant guide for Wales and per WP:NOTGUIDE, such guides are specifically out of scope for Wikipedia. That alone should be reason for deletion. Additionally the entries lack notability, and the guide is incomplete, out of date and indiscriminate. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:00, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Food and drink and Wales. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:00, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 20:52, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep: Restaurants in Wales meet WP:NLIST (e.g., National Geographic) and the page serves as a suitable navigation entry for the nine or so restaurants that are presumed notable due to having an article. The notion that it fails WP:NOTGUIDE is wrong as entries are dealt with in an encyclopedia manner, and the fact that entries may be out of date or incomplete is not a valid reason to delete. Why? I Ask (talk) 21:15, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:NLIST says a list is notable if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources. I don't see how the National Geographic or any other article that purports to list the top N restaurants (for some value of N) shows that a list of all restaurants in Wales is a notable list, and that is what this page is. The list has no inclusion criteria. An encyclopaedic treatment might be a list of michelin starred restaurants in Wales ( I expect such a list exists in reliable sources),  but this purports to be a list of all restaurants. It fails on NLIST because it is indiscriminate. It does not establish notability as a requirement for inclusion, because 12 of the 22 listed restaurants are not notable and red linked. Lists must not be indiscriminate. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:40, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Where does it purport to be a list of all restaurants? The pages without a Wikipedia page either have or had a Michelin star or received multiple AA rosettes. It would be pretty easy to make an article out of any of the redlinks. The page is not indiscriminate by any means. If you worry that people may ignore the current selection criteria, then add an invisible comment to formally establish selection criteria. Why? I Ask (talk) 21:58, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Where does it purport to be a list of all restaurants - The clue is in the name. However I do understand the point you are making about the fact that the list is currently curated in a certain manner that could be understood as encyclopaedic. I don't think the curation is consistent. Pete's Eats is indeed well known, but the standards used for its inclusion appear to differ from the others, and it is a cafe, begging a question as to what is the definition of a restaurant. Thus concerns that it is indiscriminate remain. So, if this were named something else with clear inclusion criteria that did meet NLIST because it has been discussed as a group in independent reliable sources, I would agree that it should be kept. An acceptable alternative to deletion, therefore, would be to rename the list and establish the inclusion criteria. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:33, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete - the current article is a very partial and indiscriminate list of a few eating establishments in Wales. Many entries are very dated and no longer reflect the current position. Most of the restaurants have no evidence as to their notability and I would dispute that the red-linked entries could easily have articles made. If so, where are they? It also appears that a criteria for inclusion is being formulated in this AFD yet it is not in the article. This appears to be a post hoc justification for retention. This article fails WP:GNG.  Velella  Velella Talk 22:09, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Your belief that it is a post hoc justification for retention makes no sense. AfD is about the potential for saving articles. Being out of date does not matter for a deletion discussion. Your belief that the restaurants have no evidence to notability is also demonstrably false considering each entry has about three in-depth sources. Also, indiscriminate? Every restaurant has won a major award of some type. There is nothing to suggest a small list of 22 eateries considering the size of the country is somehow indiscriminate. Why? I Ask (talk) 22:26, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Many of these places have their own articles Category:Restaurants in Wales, and the rest have reliable sources in the BBC and elsewhere that prove them notable entries that could probably have their own articles created.  D r e a m Focus  23:19, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete, there are over 8,000 catering businesses in Wales (2018), no idea if that includes the over 1000 unlicenced restaurants. Better numbers could be found (the Business Wales website seems down which doesn't help, it's probably somewhere in the ONS), but however it gets cut that's simply impractical as a list. CMD (talk) 02:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No one here is advocating for it to list every freakin' restaurant in Wales, what are you on about? This lists notable entries that have garnered significant coverage or awards. This is a poor deletion rationale that tries to argue that this list has a different scope than it actually does. Why? I Ask (talk) 02:25, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That is not a clear criteria. If it's just notability, we have the Category. If it's for specific awards, then it should be reworked to reflect that. CMD (talk) 02:34, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:NOTDUP! Even if you trimmed this down to restaurants with their own pages, it would still qualify as a well-written navigational list. If the selection criteria needs to be re-worked, that is an editing decision and fails Deletion is not cleanup. And please re-read up on what notable means. Something is notable based on the existence of sources, not whether or not it has a Wikipedia page. Pick out any restaurant from the current list; I can find you at least five high-quality sources. Why? I Ask (talk) 02:41, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It sounds like you're arguing for a much longer list while keeping to the current criteria, in which case I refer you back to my initial comment. CMD (talk) 03:00, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * A longer list? Longer than what? There are not that many restaurants in Wales (certainly not thousands) that have been the subject of several national-level sources or awards. To try and say the list will grow to be that large is fallacious. The list is fine as is, although entries that are suitably sourced can always be added. Why? I Ask (talk) 03:07, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There are not that many restaurants in Wales (certainly not thousands) that have been the subject of several national-level sources or awards. Again, I understand the point you are making and if the list were renamed and inclusion criteria restricted to, say, triple AA rosettes, then I would agree that this was a notable list. That, however, is not what it is at present. For instance, Cnapan Hotel, Newport is included apparently simply because it is a listed building. Now if you start adding in all the restaurants in listed buildings in Wales, thousands is actually not so implausible. Wales has 30,000 listed buildings and a high proportion of them do contain restaurants (I can't tell you if it is just hundreds or whether into the thousands, but it is a lot). A lot of the entries have three or more AA rosettes, which indicates they have achieved culinary standards that demand national recognition. A list of AA three+ rosette restaurants would meet NLIST. Note that some have fewer than three, whilst that still being the only listed inclusion basis, and that again starts multiplying the numbers whilst removing "national recognition" from the accolade. As it stands, the list remains indiscriminate. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:48, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If the list were renamed and inclusion criteria restricted to, say, triple AA rosettes, then I would agree that this was a notable list. Then do something along the lines of that (although using triple AA rosettes is silly; just define what the notability requirements are). WP:Deletion is not cleanup, and there is nothing here needing a WP:TNT. And no, Cnapan Hotel is not included because it just happens to be in a listed building. It's because the restaurant itself has garnered acclaim from many, many sources per Cnapan Hotel. Your point about how including restaurants in buildings would lead to thousands is straight-up false. Those restaurants also need significant coverage to be included. Why? I Ask (talk) 09:05, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment We have plenty of articles like this. Category:Lists of restaurants by country and far more in Category:Lists of restaurants. Every time one of these goes to AFD, it always ends in keep.  It is a valid information and navigational link, lists show more information and are therefore more useful than categories, and the only things listed have their own Wikipedia article or reliable sources talking about them.   D r e a m Focus  04:25, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I can only find one AfD from the by country lists, Articles for deletion/List of Canadian restaurants from 2010. It resulted in a keep (and a move, although that move would not apply here). This Wales list is certainly in better state than say List of restaurants in Australia, which is sourced solely to Hooters Australia. CMD (talk) 04:56, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Articles for deletion/List of restaurants in New Jersey, Articles for deletion/List of restaurants in Cincinnati, and Articles for deletion/List of restaurants in Baltimore happened not that long ago.  D r e a m Focus  09:33, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! CMD (talk) 12:30, 6 March 2023 (UTC)h
 * Keep per WP:NLIST, WP:NEXIST, and Why? I Ask. gidonb (talk) 20:28, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep, but of course remove any that are clearly not notable. It's a valid thing to list, particularly for a country. Sionk (talk) 21:06, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - I agree not every restaurant needs to be included, but as long as a couple of sources can be included and it's limited, it should be fine. It's useful information and it's hard to argue this one needs to go while other restaurant by state/country lists don't. I don't think a restaurant closing should mean the list becomes invalid, because a closed restaurant can be notable.KatoKungLee (talk) 17:49, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - per above, remove the entries without articles and keep to notable entries if there are concerns over non-notable entires or indiscriminate criteria, per a WP:CSC. If this were to be deleted, similar points would have to be raised at similar list articles if questions are raised whether there should be lists of restaurants at all. Concerns over what should and should not be a list would have more weight if it were done across all similar articles. There are at least multiple sources describing restuarants in Wales to at least pass WP:NLIST   .  Dank  Jae  18:44, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.