Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of rulers of Gaza


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was KEEP. postdlf (talk) 15:07, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

List of rulers of Gaza

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Unreferenced list consisting almost entirely of redlinks. Redlinks are not likely to ever turn blue and therefore aren't reasonable to contribute to the notability of this list. Does not qualify under a stand alone list and therefore should be deleted. Hasteur (talk) 19:18, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * KeepThe list itself is rather indispensable since it is not easy to find this kind of information, and we now have it. As to the predominance of red links, that means (a) there's quite a bit of work to be done, and red links tip off the interested editor what requires some work (b) as part of our struggle against systemic bias, we must keep in mind that things which do not interest Western scholars, or that are unavailable in Western sources, are probably amply or sufficiently documented in local chronicles, or book resources in area languages. That few wikipedians are Arabists, and Arabists with a command of regional histories in that language, is no grounds for destroying what little guide we have on a topic. Gaza, finally, has come back on the radar, and we need, redlinked or not, as much information as possible on it.Nishidani (talk) 19:31, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * CommentMy main concern with the page is that it's scope is narrow and doesn't match the title. Perhaps the title should be changed to "List of Arab rulers of Gaza until 1948" (or something like that), since the article leaves out the rulers before the Arab empires and after the Ottoman Empire.  I'm not so concerned with sources, as long as they are added, and I believe that they can be added.  The article History of Gaza may be useful in sources for this, although then some may ask why we need this article as well.  And I assume also that Al Ameer had sources or got this info from somewhere, as I highly doubt an editor like him made this up or pulled out of his head, so I don't see sources as much of an issue, as long as it's added sometime in the future.  -- Activism  1234  19:33, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * But under the Ottomans where's the proof that we are not dealing with Turks, as opposed to Arabs, in many cases?Nishidani (talk) 19:37, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok well that's true, my main point was that the title should reflect that it deals with starting from 1200's until the fall of the Ottoman Empire somehow. -- Activism  1234  19:40, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe "List of rulers of Gaza from Ayubids through Ottoman Empire." I'm not that good with this type of wording, but I'm sure it can be fixed. -- Activism  1234  19:41, 3 August 2012 (UTC)


 * *2
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 20:09, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 20:09, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, and by the way, WP:ARBPIA is in full effect here. Be very careful with your words.Hasteur (talk) 20:27, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not here to right great wrongs. This article should not have been moved to the article space if "there's quite a bit of work to be done".  Wikipedia is not your web host. There's no backer article (Like History of Gaza) that shows how this could be spun out.  How does a ruler of a city/small region demonstrate notability?  I'm for giving people time to improve articles, but this has absoluteley zero sources and doesn't meet any of the other exceptions (i.e. WP:NLIST) for having said list.  Almost all of these rulers are not listed in the "backer article" of the History of Gaza so there is no reason to break them out into a seperate article. Furthermre "Gaza, finally, has come back on the radar, and we need, redlinked or not, as much information as possible on it." is WP:CRYSTAL speculation.  Information like this should live in the History of Gaza page and then be split out appropriately. Hasteur (talk) 19:42, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That completely distorts my argument, and what on earth has the WP:ARBPIA reminder to do with the price of fish ('Be very careful of your words' sounds like a threat fashioned out of thin air, for goodness's sake, since there is not the slightest hint here of personal attacks or anything else. When two of us wrote the List of Shakespeare authorship candidatesit only had one source. It is now the default page worldwise on that subject). Wikipedia is certainly not here to right great wrongs. Wikipedia is here to provide useful information of an encyclopedic nature to a global readership. As for the second argument, it is a non-starter. I hadn't even thought of these people before the deletion notice went up, and this morning found several lines of information on the first character in two sources, which means probably that, alerted, I can help in forming a series of stubs (of which a huge number exist, unchallenged, in wikipedia. The fourth point, despite the meaningless ref to WP:CRYSTAL, is perhaps pertinent, but not in itself sufficient to erase the page.Nishidani (talk) 05:46, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete I think this 'could' be a useful list if relevant, well-sourced biographies for the rulers are made before this list. Until then it's a series of meaningless names. HappyHippo69 (talk) 22:22, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment This should be a section within History of Gaza, with a sourced blurb on each item. That's the right place and presentation. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:25, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep as the article creator. There are a number of reasons this article should not be deleted. I just added citations referenced to the two main sources used, so sourcing is not an issue. I will complete the referencing shortly, although I certainly should've done that before moving the list to mainspace. Regarding notability, Gaza was a major administrative center throughout history and particularly during Mamluk and early Ottoman rule, it was without a doubt the most important city in Palestine as confirmed by several sources including the ones presently used, although Safad and Nablus were also prominent district centers. About the article's name, I think it should stay the same since this list is still not finished and rulers/governors from the earlier periods and the modern era could still be added. Concerning the red links, I didn't know that would be such an issue since similar articles like List of rulers of Damascus, List of emirs of Mosul and List of rulers of Aleppo have plenty of red or empty links and all are unsourced, yet they remain noteworthy or at least useful articles. They will not remain red links forever since there's a sufficient amount of info on many of the Mamluk and Ottoman governors in the two sources used in the article. I will start more articles on the more important emirs and governors in the coming weeks. However, should there be more "delete" or "move" votes, I have no problem with merging the list into the History of Gaza article temporarily until a more thorough list could be provided. --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:40, 3 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep – Per WP:HEY. Two sources and several inline citations have been added to the article since the time of it's nomination for deletion. Per these sources, this article appears to meet WP:NLIST. Northamerica1000(talk) 23:52, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Heyman not a argument for keeping. Sourcing to single source is not appropriate.  still not up to keep level Hasteur (talk) 01:19, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I added several more book sources and a few more governors from the Ottoman period. Because this is a list, we shouldn't expect much prose content, but I will expand the lead tomorrow and maybe add a brief passage underneath each section for more context on the status of Gaza during those periods of time. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:49, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep I am delighted that Al Ameer son  has started this long-awaited article, which is already  better sourced than most  such lists. (Of course there is still work to do, like what official title the "ruler" had at what time, etc. ) Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:50, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Good point about the names. In the Mamluk era the title for Gaza's governor was na'ib while for much of the Ottoman era, the leader was called sanjak-bey. This is backed by the Sharon source. --Al Ameer son (talk) 00:24, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep Well referenced and I do think that it is a notable article topic. Sure it has a lot of red links and a few missing, but it's nothing a good deal of editing can't handle.  Uhlan  talk  02:19, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment I noticed that refs were very recently added. I still feel that the title should be changed, or the article should be expanded to include previous rulers as well, otherwise it seems to violate WP:NPOV to make a WP:POINT, even if unintentional. -- Activism  1234  02:44, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment Agreed, if the article was expanded to include previous rulers there would be a lot more 'blue links' and, therefore, more substance to the article. Just the title change - change to what exactly?  Uhlan  talk  03:06, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Something that specifies it's a list from Abuyyids - Ottomans, and doesn't include the rulers before or after. -- Activism  1234  21:09, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This is particularly important, because while it's certain Al Ameer didn't intend to make it seem as though previous rulers and rulers afterwards aren't in fact rulers (what reason would he have for doing so?? And Al Ameer is a good editor), some people may imply that, in either direction, be it, "Jews never ruled or controlled Gaza and thus have no claim to the land" or "Palestinians do not rule or control Gaza and thus have no claim to the land." -- Activism  1234  21:14, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * By 'imply' you intend to say infer. This article has nothing to do with politics.Nishidani (talk) 21:26, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, infer. And yes, I specifically said that I highly highly doubt (in fact, I'm certain) that Al Ameer didn't intend to connect it to politics.  All I'm saying is that people who don't know that can infer something wrong from here, and it goes in either direction. -- Activism  1234  21:34, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Btw, I wouldn't mind if it was specified in the lead and the title was kept. -- Activism  1234  21:34, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * We can't write articles in accordance with people who are so politicized they see conspiracies between every other line. We just write according to sources and the devil take the hindmost. Mind you, we could have an article Military governors of occupied Gaza. I'm a great admirer of Zvi Elpeleg.Nishidani (talk) 21:38, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please refrain from personal attacks and assume good faith. The title doesn't match the article, that was all I'm saying.  I think I was extremely clear and lucid when I said I know Al Ameer had no intention of implying anything this way, and I didn't blame him for anything.  I'm suggesting how the article should be improved. -- Activism  1234  22:26, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please desist from strewing wikipedia pages with accusations that editors like myself engage in personal attacks. There is no personal attack. You misread my comment on your earlier suggestion that 'some people may imply (infer)'. You there referred not to yourself, but to others, and I merely said we can't write according to what these hypothetical others might infer. To repeat these baseless accusations is itself a violation of WP:AGF, but, more seriously, evidence of a failure to construe simple English, Nishidani (talk) 12:27, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, because it was so clear and obvious that in a reply to me in which you wrote "people who are so politicized they see conspiracies between every other line" you obviously weren't referring to me. Really?  If that wasn't your intention, just say that and move on. -- Activism  1234  13:14, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Look, it's pretty well known I'm a grammatical freak, and I generally don't write in a way that doesn't represent what I think, and I didn't think what you attribute to me. So please, if you wish to challenge me, or make an inference from my words, parse it as kids use to do in school, correctly, and base your charges on what I write, not on your impression of what I might be implying. I didn't imply, but you inferred. But this is all a swirl of Darjeeling in a Yixing teapot.Nishidani (talk) 14:43, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * How well known is it? I didn't know...  But that's a side point.  If you didn't mean to call me a "so politicized person" who "see conspiracies between every other line" then that's fine.  It didn't seem that way to me, but I take your word for it and better to just move on from that. -- Activism  1234  16:18, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You don't have to admit you were wrong in your inference. But don't say if. What you asserted simply isn't there. Closed. Nishidani (talk) 16:35, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I said that I took your word for it... "If" wasn't meant as a doubt on the entire paragraph. -- Activism  1234  16:41, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't think we should rename it. The list isn't written in stone and could be expanded on. I tried to look up Roman, Byzantine, Umayyad and Abbasid governors, but didn't have much luck, although I'm sure there were governors from these periods. If anyone has information with regard to Gaza's pre-Ayyubid governors (including Canaanite, Egyptian, Philistine and Israelite) they should feel free to add it. As for the post-Ottoman rulers, we have a list of mayors from the Mandate period to the modern era which we could easily add. We also have the governors of the post-Oslo Gaza Governorate. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:24, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. This could be historically informative. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 10:28, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Move to something like List of rulers of Gaza Governorate or List of rulers of Gaza Province and emphasise in lede that it refers to the administrative unit in Mamluk and Ottoman times rather than the modern entity. Alternatively, expand to give a wider historical picture. --Colapeninsula (talk) 11:31, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Nish, I think it's clear now I'm not the only one who feels it should be renamed or lead specified... -- Activism  1234  13:15, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I tried to specify a bit in the lead that Gaza was the center of a major district during Mamluk and early Ottoman rule. During the Mamluk era it was a mamlaka ("kingdom") while for much of Ottoman rule it was a major sanjak ("district"). At any rate, as I've stated above, the list could and should be expanded to include rulers from other periods. --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:39, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * OK. If I may, I'd suggest something more along the lines of:
 * "The following is a list of rulers of Gaza during the Mamluk and Ottoman eras. During the Mamluk and early Ottoman rule, Gaza served as the capital of a province which at times included most of central and southern Palestine or the coastal plain up to Jaffa."
 * Hopefully you'll find this acceptable. I haven't done any major changes to it, just some wording changes, at least until more rulers, if any, are added. --<small style="border: 1px dashed;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Activism  1234  20:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. (Not averse to move/rename). The redlinks are not important; since any person on this list is de facto notable as the leader of a notable subdivision (akin to a U.S. state, see WP:POLITICIAN), articles about them will survive if one day created, and lists of rulers are perfectly in accordance with WP practice. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 17:13, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - agree with Roscelese that all people on the list are notable per WP:POLITICIAN and articles on each can be created. That the nom thinks that the links wont turn blue isnt a reason to delete. There are a host of articles like this, we even have Category:Lists of rulers. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 21:42, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Give it time to grow - this is very nice already and if anyone feels like adding earlier and later rulers he or she will have a place to so, in this list. List notability for me is about whether the list can provide help to a relevent research effort. This one clearly does. Thank you Al Ameer son for setting it up. &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 09:09, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep This is an excellent idea for an article, and has lots of room to grow. Seems that plenty of editors would be willing to help turn those redlinks blue, judging by this AFD alone. Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 18:29, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.