Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of school shootings in the United States by death toll


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. If anyone wants to merge may seek a consensus on talk page. (non-admin closure) Jovanmilic97 (talk) 14:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

List of school shootings in the United States by death toll

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

This is essentially a duplicate of List of school shootings in the United States, but arbitrarily restricted to incidents with at least 4 deaths. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 12:55, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 13:42, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 13:42, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete: per nom. Duplicated list but only includes shootings with over 4 deaths. GN-z11  ☎  ★ 17:41, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep: I would like to know how you can compile this list without requiring an extensive effort from "List of school shootings in the United States" which is sorted by date.―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 05:34, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * 1st remove the non-notable/signicant shootings from the article (that would reduce it by at least 50%) then convert it into one table, alternatively, add a paragraph/section that discusses the shooting with the largest/er number of casualties. Coolabahapple (talk) 06:08, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Then this AfD should have been opened after renovating "List of school shootings in the United States" extensively. It is a wrong order. Could anyone voting Delete explain how to pick the highest death incident from the current "List of school shootings in the United States"? It is virtually impossible.―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 06:19, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 11:16, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 11:16, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep. Death toll of school shootings (e.g. all the news stories - "deadliest school shooting", "Nth deadliest school shooting) is obviously a notable intersection of school shootings. As long as List of school shootings in the United States is formatted in a way that isn't sort-able by death toll, then this article is not redundant fork. Should List of school shootings in the United States become sort-able (seems to entail putting it all in one list without the era section breaks) - then I'm amendable to changing my !vote. Icewhiz (talk) 12:10, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep It's not a duplicate, it is a shorter list of a specific subgroup, arranged in an order users will find useful.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:17, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment, another concern is the arbitrary nature of inclusion in this list (4 or more deaths), why not double figures only, or 3 or more? where are the sources that back up 4 as the appropriate number? Coolabahapple (talk) 00:05, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * ps. the sort of thing that is required for WP:LISTN (as is sources that discuss (part of) the group).Coolabahapple (talk) 00:19, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I changed the listing criteria from "four or more victims" to "the worst 25" (actual number is 27).―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:39, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * That's still just as arbitrary. Why not 30 instead of 27? or 42? or 50?  Even worse, now it's an unsourced claim (on top of "worst" being WP:POV, but that's a minor point) – there's no way to ever verify that something hasn't been missed.  And it's still ultimately a duplicate of the information at the main list.  This reduces maintainability even further.  If you think it's really that vital that people be able to pick out the highest-death toll shootings, then the main list can be worked into a single table (which might be a good idea anyway).  Making a separate list that duplicates the information in another every time some idiosyncrasy of the main list prevents someone from gleaning one facet as efficiently as possible is a bit asinine.  –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 00:59, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * (Full disclosure, I just reverted the change as unsourced). –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 01:01, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment: "Top 10", "Top 25", "Top 100", "four or more victims" and so on are inherently all arbitrary not backed by any source. It is ridiculous to request a source for the number. The number is determined by a consensus which number is the best suited for a list. The arbitrary number cannot be a reason for AfD.―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 08:11, 6 February 2019 (UTC) See Deadliest Mass Shootings in Modern US History Fast Facts (not limited to school shootings) by CNN. Why does this article list eight or more victims? It is because CNN arbitrarily determined that the number is the best suited for the list, not too long and not too short.―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 22:58, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Indeed - that's a content issue to be discussed in the article.Icewhiz (talk) 08:13, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * No, what's unsourced is that the 25 listed attacks are indeed the deadliest 25 and that none have been missed (even as of a particular date). That sort of claim  require a source.  And that still misses the point that it's an arbitrary cutoff point to duplicate material from .  –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 14:39, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment, mmmm, interesting, so we dont need any sources as the no. is inherently arbitrary? well here are some more lists relating to school shootings that im sure will be useful/of interest, look forward to them being created: "List of School Shootings in the US by number of perpetrators", List of US School Shootings by State", List of US School Shootings by Size of School", "List of US School Shootings by Size of Community", "List of US School Shootings by no. of Injuries". Coolabahapple (talk) 15:09, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * No, what's unsourced is that the 25 listed attacks are indeed the deadliest 25 and that none have been missed (even as of a particular date). That sort of claim  require a source.  And that still misses the point that it's an arbitrary cutoff point to duplicate material from .  –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 14:39, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment, mmmm, interesting, so we dont need any sources as the no. is inherently arbitrary? well here are some more lists relating to school shootings that im sure will be useful/of interest, look forward to them being created: "List of School Shootings in the US by number of perpetrators", List of US School Shootings by State", List of US School Shootings by Size of School", "List of US School Shootings by Size of Community", "List of US School Shootings by no. of Injuries". Coolabahapple (talk) 15:09, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jovanmilic97 (talk) 14:03, 11 February 2019 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Keep or merge?
 * Merge The best place for this table is at the start of List of school shootings in the United States, as a kind of tabular form of lead section, highlighting the most significant shootings in the article. Retaining it as a seperate article is confusing and makes it less likely people will find the information they are looking for.--Pontificalibus 15:44, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * MERGE - We can make sortable tables anyway on the List of school shootings in the United States. Otherwise it is just WP:LISTCRUFT. Acnetj (talk) 11:19, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Notable subject that significantly differs from the other one. Harmanprtjhj (talk) 03:51, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Per WP:GNG. Per good sourcing.BabbaQ (talk) 16:09, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge This one could be merged with the other article without any hassle, consider that when most people want to see the deadliest shootings they want to see the top ones, not the bottom ones, you only need the 10 deadliest (or maybe 20), making it easier to maintain. Garlicolive (talk) 19:21, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, DannyS712 (talk) 14:45, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Per E.M.Gregory. In addition merging to nominated article make it too long so it isnot usefule alternative.Hispring (talk) 17:53, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. Merging would restrict to even more than 4. w umbolo   ^^^  23:03, 20 February 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.