Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of schools of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Spartaz Humbug! 23:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

List of schools of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Long and poorly-referenced list of non-notable entities. Per WP:NOT a directory (especially a "simple listing") there is little or no sourced information attached to the list entries, no clear way to tell if the items actually belong on the list or if they have been added later by vandals. At WT:CATHOLIC we discussed the removal of such lists from diocesan articles per the above guidelines. Elizium23 (talk) 04:09, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Elizium23 (talk) 04:09, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Elizium23 (talk) 04:09, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Illinois-related deletion discussions. Elizium23 (talk) 04:09, 8 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep - For the following reasons:
 * 1. What_Wikipedia_is_not states: "To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources." - Several such lists in fact have the detail put into such context:
 * There is a trend in the United States of Roman Catholic schools being closed due to lack of students and financial pressures. Multiple reliable, published secondary sources have documented this phenomenon in the micro and macro levels. Multiple archdioceses have been affected multiple times over the years, New York, Philadelphia, etc. Chicago undoubtedly is one of those too. (Chicago Tribune article on Catholic schools closing, Chicago Sun-Times on overall Catholic school trends and CBS Chicago article on Catholic schools closing)
 * 2. Articles_for_deletion/Common_outcomes states: "Most elementary (primary) and middle schools that don't source a clear claim to notability usually get merged or redirected to the school district authority that operates them (generally North America) or the lowest level locality (elsewhere or where there is no governing body)." - In the United States most Catholic schools are directly operated by the archdiocese, so the archdiocese is the " school district authority" for these schools.
 * WikiProject Schools/Article advice is the essay/article guidelines advice for the Schools WikiProject and it states: "Non-notable school articles are generally blanked and redirected to the school district's article (USA)"
 * 3. Practice is just as important of a consideration as what the policies and guidelines strictly say. Wikipedians have been listing "elementary (primary) and middle schools that don't source a clear claim to notability" in these lists for over a decade, and WP:COMMONOUTCOMES means that the solution was to merge them into lists.
 * Also bear in mind this will need the input from the WikiProject Schools and WikiProject Lists projects. Because various topics intersect here, it is important to get feedback from a broad variety of Wikipedians.


 * WhisperToMe (talk) 04:15, 8 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep per WTM. I'll also note that the nom has valid concerns but that deletion is not for cleanup purposes. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 06:16, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 06:29, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 06:29, 8 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Wikipedia is not a directory of every single thing that exists, and we certainly do not need to cross-categorise Catholic schools to a specific region. Ajf773 (talk) 01:50, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Please see the comment below regarding LISTN WhisperToMe (talk) 05:44, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: The archdiocese managed most (not all) Catholic schools, and makes the decision whether those that it does manage are closed (as is seen in the articles I cited). This is why the lists are by archdiocese. Now, for independent Catholic schools (those not operated by an archdiocese but merely associated with it) it may be a different manner. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:30, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * All the more reason to delete it. Linking a list of schools to a archdiocese (rather than a geographic location) fits well into the criteria of WP:NOTDIR and WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Ajf773 (talk) 20:37, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Dioceses are geographically based: each American county is assigned to a diocese: Chicago's archdiocese covers Cook and Lake counties, so all Catholic schools in these two counties would be covered. This geographic organization is no different from the countywide public school districts (for example in Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, and Virginia) which have lists of their respective schools. Public school lists are already shown to be discriminate and to fulfill the gazeteer functions of this encyclopedia, and therefore fulfill the encyclopedic criteria. BTW school districts also don't necessarily operate every single public school in their boundaries due to the existence of charter schools. WhisperToMe (talk) 21:22, 23 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep But retain only those items that meet WP:NLIST. Accesscrawl (talk) 05:03, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * When I click on NLIST the section seems to concern itself with people. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:30, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree and I meant to say WP:LISTN instead. Accesscrawl (talk) 05:36, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Awesome! I make lists of schools because Wikipedia does fulfill the purpose of being a gazetteer (this is stated in Notability (geographic features)). LISTN states: "Lists that fulfill recognized informational, navigation, or development purposes often are kept regardless of any demonstrated notability." I feel that listing Catholic schools fulfills the gazetteer function of Wikipedia. This is in addition to the reliable secondary source coverage on Catholic schools closing throughout the United States. The National Center for Education Statistics documents the K-12 schools in the U.S., and this is similar to the organizations listed at Gazetteer such as the United States Geological Survey for locations. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:44, 9 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete This list seems to bring together a lot of non-notable subjects.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:45, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Re: My explanation of LISTN: we have List of Pokémon which is a featured article, and not all of these Pokemon are individually notable. WhisperToMe (talk) 06:53, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Ajf773 (talk) 20:37, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Which says "These "other stuff exists" arguments can be valid or invalid." (in other words it is okay to use OTHERSTUFFEXISTS when the comparison is correct and the essay page explains this). List of Pokemon is a featured article, so my point is that we do in fact list things not individually notable. The question is whether it is okay to list this particular group of individually non-notable things or not. I pinged since OTHERSTUFFEXISTS states "it is important to realize that countering the keep or delete arguments of other people, or dismissing them outright, by simply referring them to this essay by name, and nothing else, is not encouraged."
 * What about article x? also explains "The nature of Wikipedia means that you cannot make a convincing argument based solely on whether other articles do or do not exist, because there is nothing stopping anyone from creating any article." - But in this case List of Pokemon is now a featured article, not merely a random article created by somebody. The point I made is that lists of "non-notable" items are acceptable, and I explained above why there is an informational/educational purpose in this list.
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 23:38, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * EDIT: I also realize there are fictional character lists like List of Animal Crossing characters and these lists have existed on WP for over a decade. When notability of a list is considered, one should make a case whether there is a proper informational purpose as per LISTN. WhisperToMe (talk) 12:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete - the best of this should be covered in an unwritten article on the history of education in the archdiocese. I'd assume there already is a list of high schools in the archdiocese. If not, pruning the article in question to that might make sense per WP:ATD, but if the lidt exists, I do not see it as a good redirect target. John from Idegon (talk) 21:43, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * What would be a better redirect target for Catholic schools directly operated by an archdiocese? I feel that the archdiocese from a U.S. parochial Catholic school standpoint has the same role as a school district from a public school standpoint.
 * An example of a public school list I created was List of Houston Independent School District elementary schools, simply because I needed a common redirect target for HISD elementary schools, and because HISD operates so many of them. These "in archdiocese" ones are just Catholic versions of this one.
 * There's also a discussion of a similar list at Talk:List_of_Dallas_Independent_School_District_schools in regards to the listing of elementary schools, particularly the need for a redirect target.
 * The reasons why I created these lists: 1. The archdiocese's primary job is not to operate schools but to operate churches, so the details on school closings can't take too much WP:WEIGHT in a history section; these lists allow me to expand upon the schools more. 2. There are cases where either the elementary/K-8 school itself is notable, or the affiliated parish/church is notable (so the school redirects to the church). The notable schools should be listed too, but then the ordinary reader will expect to see the rest. 3. Schools can have additional details covered by newspapers that give a full history of what happened at the school: there have been cases of schools about to close, be given reprieves, and then get closed years later. It gives the reader a full picture of Catholic education and Catholicism in the archdiocese and the communities within it. Also 4. It allows me to put the lists in the jurisdiction of the schools and lists WikiProjects.
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 23:40, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep This is exactly what lists are for and it fits well with the other entries in the Category:Lists of Catholic schools in the United States. Sourcing is appropriate already and additional sources have been added. Alansohn (talk) 18:20, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. Add sources if needed. Jdcompguy (talk) 20:44, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   14:41, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per WhisperToMe.Epiphyllumlover (talk) 04:12, 23 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.