Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of songs about school (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was No Consensus The only significant argument for deletion is the "loosely associated topics" section of WP:NOT, there is no WP:NOR issue here. Given the significant number of reliable secondary soures now cited, that make it claer that this topic is a subject of general published comment, that argumetn cannot prevail. But the weight of numbers is IMO too strong to close this as a consensus for keep. DES (talk) 03:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

List of songs about school
AfDs for this article: 
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Relisting per Articles for deletion/List of songs about weather Bulldog123 08:20, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletions.  -- Pax:Vobiscum 09:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:NOT, "Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics". See also WP:LC: "Song about school" does not seem to be an encyclopedic topic, so a "List of..." is not warranted. --B. Wolterding 10:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete as loosely related info. These "List of songs about" are getting more obnoxious than "My Garage Band"  Useight 16:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete this is just another useless list which is unsourced and filled with original research. Acalamari 18:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep I'd change the title to Songs about Education, however, and look for more blue-links. Many artists have sung of their school experiences, and there is a cultural significance in the diverse comments that they make about education.  Compare the Beach Boys' Be True to Your School with Pink Floyd's Another Brick in the Wall, or To Sir With Love vs. Don't Stand So Close to Me.  Many of these have been anthems during the height of their popularity.  Mandsford 23:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Dictionary.com defines education as "the act or process of imparting or acquiring general knowledge". I highly doubt these songs are about the process of acquiring knowledge.  Most of these songs reference events that happened during school/college life, but primarily about education or school.  Corpx 08:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep. I consider songs about school to be an encyclopedic topic.  Here are a few sources that I was able to easily dig up:
 * Dorian Lynskey, "Readers recommend: songs about school", The Guardian, Sept 23, 2005
 * Robert Fontenot, "Top 10 Oldies Songs About School", oldies.about.com
 * Richard Aquila, That Old Time Rock and Roll: A Chronicle of an Era, 1954-1963 (contains a list of 75(?) songs about school within the chapter titled, "Songs About the Youth Culture")
 * The article does need work, however, listings should at minimum include year of the song's release and where possible a link to a song/album article or other reference. I'd also like to see a brief well-written (and sourced) introduction to the topic. -MrFizyx 19:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * As mentioned, WP:NOT specifically mentions against Lists of loosely assosiated topics.  As your links prove, content like this is fine and suitable for other sites/articles/editorials.  Corpx 08:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You forgot books. "Loosely associated" is a debatable definition. -MrFizyx 20:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment: I have significantly edited the article, but more work needs to be done. I hope that I have started to address some of the concerns above. -MrFizyx 06:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * With respect to the sources you added: They are a splendid example of how arbitrary this list is. Several sources collected a list of "top / recommended songs about school"; and in most cases they disagree. Of course they do! The selection of such songs is highly subjectice. That doesn't matter for a radio station or music magazine; but for an encyclopedia, one would like content that is verifiable, objectively. Collecting "top school song charts" from several sources does not make an encyclopedia entry, just as a list of "songs that have been named top hits by someone" would not fit. See also Lists in Wikipedia. --B. Wolterding 17:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't claim that this list is a "best of" therefore we are not being subjective. The sources above (1) help improve the list's completeness by filling in major omissions, (2) verify the relevance of a significant fraction of the list and (3) demonstrate the notability of the concept.  They are not being used to introduce subjectivity, because we are not highlighting anyone's favorites.
 * What I think would be better is to present this as an article titled "Songs about school" that would include both an article and a dynamic list of examples. The text would discuss the role of school songs in culture--I was planning to start a short intorduction to the topic based largely on the following:
 * Kevin J. Brehony, "'I Used to Get Mad at My School': Representations of Schooling in Rock and Pop Music", ''British Journal of Sociology of Education", 19:1, March 1998, pp.113-134
 * B. Lee Cooper, (Intro to) "Popular Music Reflects Teens' Attitudes About School" from American Teenagers (?)
 * I think you are plain wrong to assume that none of these lists can be given context within an encyclopedia. Please consider the possibility.  The Encyclopaedia Britannica article on "Rock and youth culture" is not too far afield from what I'm suggesting here. -MrFizyx 17:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It depends on the inclusion criteria. If the list is then reduced to a hand-selected set of examples which fit your introduction well - fine. If however your introduction serves as an alibi for the current list, where everybody adds any song that would contain the word "school" in title or lyrics, then the list will be still listcruft. In any case, it would perhaps best be to prepare this radically changed article in user space. --B. Wolterding 17:58, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * There should be criteria, but it should remain an article that "anyone can edit" (in mainspace!). Content disputes should be handled as they are everywhere on wikipedia (not "hand-selected" by one or few).  My impression is that this list requires a bit less cleanup than most "List of songs..." articles.  And as essays go, the current draft of WP:LC doesn't impress much. -MrFizyx 19:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete Another list that's unmaintable, considering the number of songs out there and the number of schools. After reading some of the songs with articles, I've come to the conclusion that most of these songs are not primarily about schools.   Schools are used as metaphors for some societal situations etc.  This weakens & loosens the inclusion criteria even more, based on WP:NOT.  Corpx 08:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * There are about 130 songs currently listed. References have already been provided for >25%.  The list is certianly not unmaintainable.  Some are indeed likely to be removed if they do not explicitly discuss schooling related issues or extensively use "school" imagery.  Many wikipedia articles have issues regarding what is or is not to be included.  These problems should not be hard for interested editors to resolve.  Perhaps you could clarify your concerns regarding WP:NOT?  As I recall, that policy begins with something like "Wikipedia is not paper..." -MrFizyx 18:35, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I Dont think the references are valid. Notdarkyet.com is somebody's personal webpage and should not be used as a reference.   The other 2 links cite somebody's opinion on what the song is about.   This is again open to interpretation and cant be settled unless the artist himself/herself voices the definite opinion about the song.  Corpx 18:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * References should be considered valid if they pass WP:RS. I have added a link to the official playlist for Dylan's XMRadio show, I've left the one to the fansite since they appear to have corrected some of the typos and added some relevant info--I only grabbed the fansite because it was being used in the Theme Time Radio Hour article.  If the collective readership of The Guardian, a writer paid to be an "oldies" expert, or for that matter, Bob Dylan decide that a song is a significant song about school or has a school related theme, that should be good enough (unless it is an unusually controversial choice for some reason).  Sometimes an artist doesn't know herself what her own song is about...  Art must be experienced and interpreted by somebody or else it aint art.  This notion that nobody can ever know what a song is about without the "definite opinion" is not logical.  (Is this what has kept "Bitch School" off the list all this time?!?!) -MrFizyx 22:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I referenced WP:NOT because I think this is a list of loosely associated topics. A list like this is no different than making one about "List of songs about childhood" or "List of songs about work", since these are all activities/phases everyone goes through.  Corpx 18:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it depends on how the matter is framed. "List of songs about work" probably is a tad broad and sounds unencyclopedic.  "List of Labor songs" hmmm... maybe.  If someone were to write an article, "Songs of the Labor Movement" and include a list it would be clearly not trivial and not indiscriminate.  I think "songs about school" have a socio-cultural niche and that this list can be given context. -MrFizyx 22:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Further improvements have been made: I've added additional songs, sources, and a short introduction.  If the article is not deleted I will try to improve the article in a manner that will reduce the likelihood of a future AfD.  I feel the ususal criticims that similar articles are "full of original research" or represent a "trivial intersection" have been addressed for this case.  I think I may have reached the limit of work that I'm willing to put in without knowing the outcome of this debate.  (I don't think the current intro is very good, but the book named above actually involves going to a library, and the lengthly journal article will take some time to digest). -MrFizyx 17:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Methinks this is a different article than when this debate began. -MrFizyx 20:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The core of the issue is that this is a list of loosely assosated items. I apprecate your work on the article, but it is in clear violation of WP:NOT.    Corpx 01:19, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "Loosely associated" is certianly open to interpretation. There are now sufficient sources for this topic to easily pass notability criteria such as WP:N.  I think that suggests that perhaps these are not loosely associated.  This is a fair point to debate though.  This will be my last post to the 'pedia for a little while.  Good luck. -MrFizyx 05:05, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.