Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of songs with lists in the lyrics

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was DELETE. Postdlf 05:34, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

List of songs with lists in the lyrics
Unencyclopedic, unmaintainable, undefined (and perhaps undefinable), excessively recursive, listcruft Xoloz 06:41, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per all of the above. What's next, List of songs with lists of songs with lists in the lyrics? --Angr/undefined 07:26, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. It's a well-defined type of song. And since List of songs with lists of songs with lists in the lyrics is a sublist of this list, we only need this list for now. ;-) &mdash;BenFrantzDale 07:55, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * I must disagree -- Are two things a "list"? "Three"? "Abraham, Martin, and John" for example? Should that be here? Without some more restrictive criteria, at the very least, it will more remarkable to be a song with no list in its lyrics. Mind you, that is only one of my objections. Xoloz 08:22, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Another hypothetical that I find troubling for this list: Without too much stretching, one can reasonably call The Battle Hymn of the Republic a "list of actions taken by (or in response to) God" or The Star-Spangled Banner a "list of impressions recorded at the Battle of Fort McHenry. Without serious clarification, list really is a term in the eye of the beholder. Xoloz 11:28, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I've clarified the criteria as an explicit list of ten or more items, given examples (The Alphabet Song and We Didn't Start The Fire), and removed a few items as a result (notably 99 Bottles of Beer On The Wall); more vetting is still needed. &mdash;BenFrantzDale 16:04, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Why ten? Why not nine, or 25, or 1,000? A &#1080; D &#1103; 01D  TALK  EMAIL  16:09, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Point taken. It was a first stab at clarifying the criteria for inclusion and in response to Xoloz's valid criticism that 3 items a list song does not make. Perhaps "The majority of the lyrics must constitute an explicit list." If you have a better idea, feel free to change the criteria. &mdash;BenFrantzDale 00:45, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * That's exactly my point. I don't believe there are criteria for such a list that would make it encyclopedic. A &#1080; D &#1103; 01D  TALK  EMAIL  03:58, July 14, 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete unencyclopedic unmaintainable list. JamesBurns 08:53, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - unmaintainable, irrelevant - Skysmith 09:15, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, great list. Kappa 10:15, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - ridiculous, unencyclopedic. Taught me a great word, listcruft. I'll bear it in mind. Naturenet | Talk 11:30, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete silly listcruft --Doc (?) 12:14, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, unencyclo. Radiant_ &gt;|&lt; 13:11, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per Xoloz. A &#1080; D &#1103; 01D  TALK  EMAIL  13:13, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep but include exactly what a "list" is in the article. Y0u (Y0ur talk page) (Y0ur contributions) 13:48, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. What's the point of this? None I can see. Nabla 15:17, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is exactly the sort of list that makes me want to propose a "Lists may only be permitted as part of larger articles that could stand on their own as articles with the list removed.  Otherwise, attempts to form a list as an article must be merged with a legitimate and actual article, converted into a category, or deleted." as a policy.  The Literate Engineer 15:38, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. It looks like a good starting point to further clarify what lists are for. I didn't gave it much thought, so it may have some loopholes, but why don't you raise that issue on Wikipedia talk:Lists? I'll watch for it. Nabla 00:42, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. The inclusion of songs like "Kokomo" and "Walk on the Wild Side" make it clear that one man's "list" is another's "motif", "repeated phrase" or "chorus".  Too subjective, and honestly accomplishes nothing anyway.  The purpose of lists is to shed light on the underlying subject, e.g., the list of songs about drugs helps us understand how drugs are regarded in pop culture.  Do we learn anything about "lists" from this article?  Obviously not.  Dcarrano 16:57, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree it needs cleanup but with the clarification I gave, that cleanup is now possible. I don't think we learn anything about lists from the article, but we do learn about songs and what people like to sing about. For me this list answers the question "What other songs are like The End Of The World As We Know It and We Didn't Start The Fire?" It may not be a deep question, but I find it fascinating. &mdash;BenFrantzDale 17:05, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep as per BenFrantzDale --royblumy 21:36, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your trying, but the "list" needs more of a definition than a number (and any number has the problem of arbitrariness.) Blowin' in the Wind is quite literally a list of 12 questions punctuated by its chorus.  It is a list with more than ten items, but it isn't what you're looking for (I think).  I honestly don't know how to qualify things to get what I think you want.  Together with others, even if you did have a foolproof qualification, I'm not sure the list serves an encyclopedic purpose.  It would be possible to start a List of songs whose first lyric word is "Since", and that might be curiously amusing, but it is essentially an exercise in the absurd.  Xoloz 23:25, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Trying to get at a definition is tricky. I'd say Blowin' in the Wind doesn't count because it has a collection of sentences not a list in the typographic sense like We Didn't Start The Fire. (If you remove all the "Yes and"s from the lyrics, then it might start to be a list song.) As for List of songs whose first lyric word is "Since", I don't think there's any point to lists of songs when the list could be derived from a complete database of lyrics and metadata. (The same goes for List of songs by Muddy Waters.) I see the song lists as a good place to collect songs that fall into more-essoteric categories. &mdash;BenFrantzDale 06:36, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * When you it put it that way, I am afraid the list violates no original research. See, if there is an esoteric genre of "long, rapid-fire list" songs, there should be an article on that topic, citing primary sources that have discussed this genre.  One can't "sneak" esoteric, original research into the encyclopedia by way of a list.  I think my point here echoes the Literate Engineer above.  Xoloz 08:37, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. But it made me laugh.  Moncrief 21:37, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Interesting idea, but firm criteria for inclusion need to be developed. Gamaliel 04:01, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. unencyclopedic, etc. --Joel7687 10:34, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as subworthless listcruft. Although there must be a few hundred rap songs that would have fulfilled the criteria for this list (especially as every rap song sounds like an angry man reciting his shopping lists). Proto t c 12:36, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 'keep please there is nothing wrong with this list Yuckfoo 17:23, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. It is not the job of an encyclopedia to collect a random group of objects together using a set of esoteric criteria. Indrian 15:50, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.