Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of sovereign states in Europe by date of achieving sovereignty (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Black Kite (t) (c) 20:31, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

List of sovereign states in Europe by date of achieving sovereignty
AfDs for this article: 
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This page is redundant to List of sovereign states by date of formation, which contains information about Europe and has a better title. The page List of countries by statehood was also redundant, but is at this moment a redirect to aforementioned article. This page also fails WP:V, using almost no sources and those it does cite wrongly. (It cites the CIA World Factbook about San Marino, but the sources does not say that Sammarinese independence dates from 301.) The deletion rationale is this: questions of statehood and sovereignty are hotly disputed (in theory and in political reality), a list providing no sources and misusing the few it cites is not worthy of this project. Work to cover the same topic can be done at List of sovereign states by date of formation, which is already better organised. Srnec (talk) 18:35, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Europe-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:43, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:43, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete (or redirect) as it is redundant to the above-mentioned list. Arsenikk (talk)  19:15, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The lists are not redundant: One list is sorted alphabetically and by inherent design can not be sorted by date. The other list is by date. List of countries by statehood uses dates with a different definition. -- Tomdo08 (talk) 21:34, 9 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete the nominator makes good points: not only it is redundant, but due to different conception of statehood through time this list with all the good intentions will ever hardly make sense. Aldux (talk) 00:47, 3 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment - are any of these lists based on a coherent set of criteria? These two lists place the birth of Bulgaria about 1150 years apart. Comparing this list, the one to be merged into it following the recent vote, and the one with which it is redundant, there are three different dates for Austria. I have half a mind to say delete them all and let God sort it out. Agricolae (talk) 01:05, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment I think the main list should be split out into other articles (Europe, Africia, Asia, etc) due to the size of the article.  Lugnuts  (talk) 08:18, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Merge content into Predecessors of sovereign states in Europe and Redirect to List of sovereign states by date of formation. Weak alternative: Split List of sovereign states by date of formation by continents. Either all continents should have separate articles, or there should be a single world list. Alinor (talk) 09:53, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment I tried to compile a list of the articles of this type (there are more than those discussed here): here. Alinor (talk) 09:53, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, the List of countries by statehood is not redirecting - it is still present - there is a merge discussion, but nothing is finalized yet. Alinor (talk) 10:05, 3 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep – having no sources is not a reason to delete if the information is obviously correct or easily correctable. Sources can be found for the article quite easily. List of sovereign states by date of formation should be split into continents so more information can be added without the article become huge and cluttered.  McLerristarr /  Mclay1  03:03, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * To be clear: I conted that nothing in this list is either obviously correct or easily correctable. That is the problem. As one editor has already noted, it is not based on any "coherent set of criteria". Srnec (talk) 03:48, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you mean no "coherent set of criteria"? It's exactly the same concept as List of sovereign states by date of formation except specifically for Europe.  McLerristarr /  Mclay1  02:41, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What is sovereignty and how is it attained? What is the "coherent set of criteria"? France was not sovereign in 843. Nor San Marino in 301. Nor Andorra in 1278. And why is Turkey becoming a republic more significant than France becoming a republic? No coherent set of criteria. Not that "formation" is any more clear. . . Srnec (talk) 02:48, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The Turkey/France comment is irrelevant as clearly the page is incomplete. If you are so concerned about the word "sovereignty", then the page could easily be renamed. This page is basically a sub-page of List of sovereign states by formation date. If this page requires deletion for "coherent set of criteria" reasons, then so should List of sovereign states by formation date.  McLerristarr /  Mclay1  03:16, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If it is incomplete, why does it contain dates for France and Turkey? That comment is all too relevant. I don't like List of sovereign states by date of formation because the formations of states rarely have precise dates, as I tried explaining over at Talk:Kingdom of Sardinia. I wouldn't mind in the least to see that page go, but one thing at a time. Not everything can be conveniently listified. A List of sovereign states by date of adoption of present constitution would be better but would exclude states with uncodified constitutions, like the UK. A List of members of the United Nations by date of entry (or whatever word is better than "entry") would also have a clear set of criteria. Srnec (talk) 03:41, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "If it is incomplete, why does it contain dates for France and Turkey?" I'm sorry but that is a ridiculous question. You have to start somewhere or the page will never be complete. Also, List of national constitutions includes the dates the constitutions were adopted and List of United Nations member states includes the dates the members joined so we needn't worry about creating new pages for those things. You are correct in saying that formation dates etc. rarely have precise dates, but we have to do our best to get it as accurate as possible – it's better than not including the information at all. That's why List of sovereign states in Europe by date of achieving sovereignty contains the column on the right for including more information to show that the formation of a country happens over many stages. Sovereignty can be defined and the date of achieving that sovereignty isn't that hard to pick. It's only difficult for countries existing before the 2nd millennium, before countries really existed.  McLerristarr /  Mclay1  04:26, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. Useful list with good sourcing. Any problems can be fixed using the normal processes. Capitalistroadster (talk) 09:40, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete The implication that all states "achieve sovereignty" at some specific date is ridiculous. The issues should be addressed at the individual states' articles. When did the UK "achieve sovereignty" When England united with Scotland? They were both sovereign states before that. When (the republic of) Ireland split off? 1066?? 1689?? This information is unsuitable for a list. Dingo1729 (talk) 16:44, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There are similar problems with entries for France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Norway, Czech Republic, Slovak Republic, Poland, Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria and several others. None of these can possibly be claimed to have a clear date. Switzerland should be OK though. Dingo1729 (talk) 19:22, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, / ƒETCH COMMS  /  00:22, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Comment there is an AfD notice that Modern empires' loss of European territory is to be merged into this article. 76.66.200.95 (talk) 05:35, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment there is also a AfD discussion about Predecessors of sovereign states in Europe ongoing. That's why I tried to compile a list of the articles of this type (there are more than those discussed here): here. Consider the proposal there for arranging all such articles in a coherent way. Alinor (talk) 10:43, 9 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Merge and make the table sortable. -- Tomdo08 (talk) 20:51, 9 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment: This list should have no reference! The references should be within in the listed items. -- Tomdo08 (talk) 20:56, 9 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep: List of sovereign states by date of formation by design will not be sortable in the required manner. The need to correct is no reason for a deletion. -- Tomdo08 (talk) 21:12, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not believe that a "date of achieving sovereignty" can be assigned for every sovereign state in Europe. The articles on the individual states do not resolve the issue because they do not all deal with the definition of sovereignty. When a date is assigned to France, I want to know where it comes from. Although the date can be found at the article on the history of France, the discussion there of what occurred then does not explain why it is a "date of achieving sovereignty". Srnec (talk) 04:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * At some point all countries must have come into existence – that is the date they achieve their sovereignty. The date for France is the date the Carolingian Empire split into three. That is definitely arguable however. The dates of achieving sovereignty are difficult to define before the 2nd millennium but easier after.  McLerristarr /  Mclay1  11:04, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I certainly agree that the date for France is arguable. And that's all it is. There are many other possible dates and no reliable source to choose among them. Any date we choose is Original Research and nothing but our opinion. Many of the dates we could choose are well into the second millennium and several are in the 20th century. France is by no means an exception, it's closer to being typical. Dingo1729 (talk) 16:20, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I would say France, Denmark and Sweden are the only difficult ones because they were formed by "barbarians", making it difficult to pinpoint the exact time the tribes settled down to become a country. All the other countries are much easier to define.  McLerristarr /  Mclay1  11:41, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Such a definition of "achieving sovereignty" seems to be totally different from the one in Sovereign State. Under the definition there, it is doubtful if any state before the 19th (maybe 18th) century could be said to have sovereignty. Kings or Princes or Emperors had sovereignty over territories but that is a very different concept. Dingo1729 (talk) 22:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.