Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of states by date of self-determination


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 07:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

List of states by date of self-determination

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

This page is a duplicate of List of countries by date of statehood and List of countries by date of independence. It was even created explicitly as a protest page under the name Alternative List of countries by date of independence. The article has no references and contains several items of disputed information. Inge 10:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This list is not a duplicate of the other lists, since the information is different and the purpose of the list as well. It was not started as a protest page. Both other lists don't have any references, so i don't see why you don't want to delete these other lists as well. All information is disputed.--Daanschr 10:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This article has been debated on 1.5 years ago: Articles for deletion/Alternative List of countries by date of independence. There was no consensus back then on what to do. Deleting it was a minority view. I am in favour of merging instead of deleting. I dislike the overall quality of Wikipedia, so i don't understand what the fuss is all about.--Daanschr 11:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That discussion ended with 7 votes to remove the page either by merger or deletion and 3 votes to keep the page under a different name. Inge 11:37, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The bottom line for me is that I believe the retention of three separate articles on in effect the same topic is a display of a break down in the wikipedia conflict resolution process. Even if statehood, independence and self-determination might have slightly different academic definitions. We are supposed to work togeather to create one article of supreme quality for the benefit of the readers. If we disagree on the way to get there we can't just split up. Now we have three articles displaying a slightly different wiev on the same topic. So let's get back to just one article again.Inge 11:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How can supreme quality be reached if the low amount of experts on Wikipedia are being chased away (Expert retention)?--Daanschr 13:11, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That's an opinion essay and not really germane here. --Dhartung | Talk 17:46, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete, this appears to be a POV fork from the lists mentioned above. Lacks sourcing, as well. ɑʀкʏɑɴ 15:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete, "self-determination" is a subjective aspect. It's quite bizarre, for instance, to describe Turkey's "self-determination" as the beginning of the Ottoman Empire. I just love the warning about "tricky dates" -- that applies to half the list. --Dhartung | Talk 17:46, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete, see above. Inge 17:57, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have moved the data to my user page, so i don't mind the deletion of the article. Though, i will miss the discussions about the data with users who frequented on the article.--Daanschr 19:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom & above. This list is unbelievably subjective. No sources, pure original research. --Targeman 20:37, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I was creative with the sources. I deliberately put in links of the head of states at the time a state came into being. Details about the date of self-determination can often be found on the biographies of the rulers, or by reading into the history of a state. I used data from Wikipedia itself, which can all be found in the subsequent articles. So, the claim of original research is unfounded.
 * Subjectivity is a problem in all articles, that is why i am in favour of an intellectual debate. I had started a project for it, but due to a lack of time and a low amount of participants, the project didn't came into fruition. Hereby i invite you all to participate in it, than this bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo can be forgotten. What do you mean exactly with "unbelievably subjective?" Do you think that you are helping Wikipedia further by expressing such an opinion on a page designed for deleting an article?--Daanschr 09:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Essentially, the three lists consist of three different views of when a nation came into existence. The Turkish nation was certainly around before 1923, the date given on the other two lists as the "independence" of Turkey. I'm not sure which of these lists has to be the official "date of creation of states" list of the NFL or of Wikipedia, or why this is a matter of choosing which two lists to delete. Mandsford 23:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep I think Daanschr has the right idea in moving the article to his UserPage, but I question the nomination. The statement "This page is a duplicate of List of countries by date of statehood and List of countries by date of independence" is clearly false.  Second, neglecting to mention that this list was nominated for deletion before runs counter to the good faith presumption.  However, that previous debate has not been preserved for review, so I don't know whether the nominator and author exchanged words in that one either.


 * My rationale for making the Turkish independence start before 1923 is that the republic of Turkey has been founded by the Ottoman Turkish army. I think the date 1923 is a mark of a regime change and can't be seen as a date of self-determination. This has to do with the use of the idea of Max Weber that the state is an institution with the monopoly of violence. This monopoly of violence is in the first instance represented by having an army, like the Turkish army. Turkey is the state with the longest period (from the start of the state), in which the own army was in control of at least a part of its own territory.--Daanschr 06:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * By duplicate I mean that it is in effect the same article, but it is not an exact copy of course. We now have three articles on the same topic. All three articles aim to inform the reader on when a particular state came to be. We started out with one article and then people disagreed on the content of the article. They were not able to resolve the differences and started a new article. Now I thought I'd try fix that. The previous AFD is at Articles for deletion/Alternative List of countries by date of independence like Daanschr has pointed out and like I pointed out it shows a large majority for removing the article, but noone took any action then. So lets work togeather on one article in stead of all of us writing one article each conforming to our particular view.Inge 12:00, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I am willing to participate in an attempt to merge all three articles to one. Though, i have to note that there is a difference between the date of independence and the start of nationhood. It would be easy to come with trunkloads of arguments to make a merger possible though. There is a chance that the two other lists are not active anymore, that nobody guards the contents.--Daanschr 19:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * So Inge, how about it? Are you going to organize something, or will we do nothing?--Daanschr 07:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I know these things can take a frustrating amount of time. :) Now we'll have to wait for an administrator to close this Afd. Inge 00:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You guys really know how to keep people enthusiastic for this project.--Daanschr 10:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.