Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of successful Hail Marys in American football


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:07, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

List of successful Hail Marys in American football

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Too much SYNTH and OR to make this a viable article. Lacks enough references while editors have added commentary. Not enough sources link the list items as being notable into the topic. Also, RECENTISM (doesn't go back far enough). A complete purge would result in the list being incomplete (even though it is already). Does not appear to be salvageable as is. Cptnono (talk) 11:34, 26 September 2010 (UTC) Turns out that it was salvageable (in my opinion at least). Cleanup is still needed but that isn't enough of a deletion issue since the list's prevalence of OR has been significantly reduced. The other issues presented look to not be sufficient to others. New talk page section hereCptnono (talk) 10:34, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Whether one likes or does not like this type of page, it is unusually well-sourced for a sports article. It's suggested that this could never, under any circumstances, be a viable article; but I don't see any objections ("not enough sources", "doesn't go back far enough", etc.) that can't be cured by the usual editing process.  Mandsford 22:24, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - Pure trivia. American football has been around for over a century, and this open-ended list starts just a few years ago. Not to mention the fact that "American football" entails all levels from Pop Warner to the Pros, inviting entries to this list of thoroughly non-notable instances of effective Hail Mary plays. Imagine if this was a list called List of holes of one in golf... That's exactly what we have here. Feel free to add your team's name to the list, kids! No matter how well-intentioned in conception, in practice this is not a rational list due to it's open-ended nature and inevitably trivial content. Now, if you want to convert this to something called List of successful Hail Marys in NCAA bowl games, let's talk... —Carrite, Sept. 26, 2010.
 * And shoot me a message if that happens since that would narrow the scope to something workable and kind of cool.Cptnono (talk) 03:32, 27 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep hardly "trivia" by any stretch. Lots of reliable sources, notable events, and a good solid start on a list. It needs more history added, sure--but that's an editing issue, not a deletion one.  As for the argument of "Pop warner football hail marys" -- hey, if one gets coverage in USA Today, ESPN, Sports Illustrated... then it's probably notable for one reason or another and would actually belong on the list.  As for the argument that "kids" will start to add their names to the list-hey, "It will probably get vandalized" is not really a reason to delete it either.  If that does become a problem, the page can be protected.--Paul McDonald (talk) 04:02, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. As currently structured, the list is limited to major college and pro "Hail Mary" passes.  In that form, no real risk of kids adding their Pop Warner or high school plays.  Solid sourcing as well.  An interesting and useful compilation. Cbl62 (talk) 05:02, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment What defines what exactly constitutes a "hail mary"? It is far too subjective to make such a list feasible. A 80-yard pass on the first play of the game or a 20-yard pass to tie or win?  Grsz 11  05:05, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Response. Neither of your examples would be a Hail Mary.  The term has been used to refer to a long pass (typically 40 or more yards) thrown by a team that is behind on the scoreboard in the last minute of a game to tie or win the game.  Dictionary.com defines it as "a long forward pass in football, esp. as a last-ditch attempt at the end of a game, where completion is considered unlikely."   There may be some "gray" as to whether a particular pass is a "Hail Mary", but the ones on the list appear to be clear cases.  Indeed, the press reports on these plays typically use the term "Hail Mary" pass.  If folks start adding ones that are debatable, these can be discussed on the talk page.  In its current form, I think it's a useful compilation. 05:15, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Further note. Actually, the list includes several examples of passes thrown in the last minute of the first half.  These do not appear to qualify as "Hail Mary" passes in the classic sense, as defined, e.g., in dictionary.com.  There is a need for a clearer definition within the article of what qualifies as a "Hail Mary." Cbl62 (talk) 05:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * A simple solution is to make sure that the source states that it was a hail mary so that it is not SYNTH. Several do not have any source. The fact that people are even discussing what a "Hail Mary" is punctuates one of the biggest concerns with this list. And adding highschool and lower ball would be easy enough with the current title and perceived scope. That also goes back to the recentism issue. Is someone going to be pulling hard copy sources from 1981 on a college team? We also haven't even addressed if the subject (individual plays) is notable.Cptnono (talk) 10:55, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm doing that as we speak. Secret account 00:34, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a thought perhaps the best definition of a "hail mary pass" could be found at the Hail Mary pass article which is linked in the list article in question: "~ refers to any very long forward pass, long bomb, or dragon made in desperation with only a small chance of success, especially one thrown at or near the end of a half."--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:29, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Not sure why the referenced definition would be the best definition, particularly since there is no source. Not sure what the difference is between a "long forward pass" and a "long bomb" and just what is a "dragon"? Probably better to go with the one, quoted above, from dictionary.com.  Cbl62 (talk) 04:53, 28 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Just another thought if some six year old kid can throw a 40+ yard pass to win a game in pop warner football, I say list it!--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:35, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Further comment. To address User:Cptnono's concern about "RECENTISM (doesn't go back far enough)", I did some research and added early references to the term from games in the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s. Cbl62 (talk) 06:56, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow. That made a huge difference. Enough people are saying keep and that just took care of much of the problem. Assuming this is kept, the only major concern are the entries without sources saying "Hail Mary". But that is a clean-up issue and not a deletion discussion issue so this might be able to be closed out now if someone wants. We might run into a scope issue down the line but that can be addressed if it ever comes up.Cptnono (talk) 10:32, 28 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep Article has been improved considerably with reliable sources to back up this incredibly rare event in football. Notable subject. Vodello (talk) 18:29, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep and trim the non-hail marys, rare play football's equvalent to a no-hitter. Secret account 00:25, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete. I came here by accidentally visiting that article. What a load of trivia. Please, this kind of thing damages the WP brand. Apart from this, it's poorly written, poorly organised, and has a hint of POV in elevating what many readers would consider superstition to an unquestioned status. Tony   (talk)  04:19, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.