Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of suicides in fiction (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was  Keep This was close, but in the end, the arguments by Cirt and Jclemens won out. I know that the majority of !votes were to delete, but it isn't the number of !votes, but rather the strength of the argument. I do believe that it needs to be cleaned up and probably renamed. I wouldn't mind seeing something where the Suicides were meaningful or played a significant role in the fiction. But being a poorly organized list that needs help is not justification for deleting. Cirt showed that suicides in fiction is a notable subject, which is what really matters.--- Balloonman  NO! I'm Spartacus! 08:38, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

List of suicides in fiction
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

List which fails WP:NOTCATALOG and WP:IINFO. Wikipedia isn't an indiscriminate collection of information, and this is just that. Claritas § 18:28, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete overly broad scope that fails WP:SALAT, WP:IINFO, WP:V, and WP:NOTDIR. Over 90% of the entries are unsourced. —Farix (t &#124; c) 21:46, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletion discussions.  -- —Farix (t &#124; c) 21:46, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions.  -- —Farix (t &#124; c) 21:46, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions.  -- —Farix (t &#124; c) 21:47, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions.  -- —Farix (t &#124; c) 21:47, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions.  -- —Farix (t &#124; c) 21:47, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete. In the previous discussion, I was willing to support keeping this because there were promises to improve the sourcing, scope, etc. In the nine months since then, there has been some improvement, but not nearly enough. It remains a broad and indiscriminate list full of unsourced items and other material that doesn't seem to match even the broadest possible scope of such a list. If this can't be brought up to standards in nine months, it most likely never will be, and we shouldn't host overbroad lists that can't meet standards. — Gavia immer (talk) 22:06, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:32, 8 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep List of suicides in notable fiction might be a better choice for a title. If the fiction was notable, then this aspect is important to note.  Some of the suicides most likely were important enough to be mentioned in reviews, as key plot elements.   D r e a m Focus  21:06, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You proposed that back in the last discussion in September, and neither you or any other editor has removed non-notable entries or added citations, so I think this is a rather weak argument. Claritas § 10:57, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixing up articles should be a team effort, I propose a criteria to be put into place here. Okay so the idea has been proposed, I did not see any effort for improvement from you either. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:43, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * "Keep because the other guy should have done all the work" is not a valid argument. Nine months have elapsed since the last deletion nomination, enough time for anyone to fix the list if that was going to happen. It's not going to happen. — Gavia immer (talk) 15:03, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it is the responsibility of those who !vote "Keep" in discussions to contribute to the article so that the flaws which resulted in it being brought to AFD have been addressed. If the list is kept, I will do my best to improve it by removing all uncited entries apart from those which are obviously notable, and providing citations for those. Claritas §  15:24, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * For this list to work a criteria for notability needs to be but into place, I see potential here as there are notable suicides in fiction out there, some which have influenced the media. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:31, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The article looks fine to me. If you believe something shouldn't be on the list, despite being a suicide in a notable work of fiction, then discuss it on the talk page of that article.   D r e a m Focus  10:05, 11 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep Revised to keep, Dream brings up a great idea. One of the most famous being Romeo and Juliet I feel a list of notable suicides would be better. Rename to List of suicides in notable fiction and cleanup/reference the list - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:41, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment How about List of notable suicides in fiction? This way, one has to verify that the fictional suicide is notable via reliable third-party sources. But under it's current name or even under List of suicides in notable fiction, the scope is far too broad. —Farix (t &#124; c) 21:30, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - Some is uncited and valueless rubbish. Off2riorob (talk) 01:38, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Significant figures in notable fiction are appropriate content for a list of this sort. The argument that "some is uncited" means they need to be cited, not the entire article removed.    DGG ( talk ) 02:44, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete as failing WP:SALAT- too indiscriminate; and userify to anyone who wants to trim it down and purge all the non-notable entries (which are a vast majority of this list). There's potential for a Suicides in fiction article that would be quite good... but this isn't it. Courcelles (talk) 10:06, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. Multiple books have been written about this very subject itself, referencing the subject specifically, in the very title of the books . Some of these books include: Suicide and fiction, Suicide in Henry James's fiction‎, Suicide in Joseph Conrad's fiction, Suicide in American fiction: 1798-1909, and Rising to the Surface: Suicide as Narrative Strategy in Twentieth-Century Women's Fiction. Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 12:28, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You're right, but wouldn't it be better simply to have an article titled Sucide in fiction as opposed to the present list ? Claritas § 15:40, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Sucide in fiction is too broad though in my opinion. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:01, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, --  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 07:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - Currently it looks like consensus is to either delete this alltogether or make another article from it because it does show potential to some, if it is to be renamed may I suggest that it be done on the talk page as there looks like to be a few diffrent renaming suggestions. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:04, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Weak delete. I would rename to notable suicides, but most of them aren't notable.RussianReversal (talk) 23:13, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - The proposal to only include notable works of fiction and/or notable suicides in fiction sounds good, but suffers from the same problem - how notable is notable and what does putting them all together in a list accomplish? This list has Romeo and Juliet, but it doesn't include Brutus, who committed suicide at the end of Julius Caesar. The character and the play are notable, but how about the actual act - is his suicide notable? Or doesn't it matter so long as the character and the play are? And what do you get from putting together a list of the (I assume) thousands of suicides in fiction?  Maybe a category or series of categories would be better? I think I prefer the suggestion made above to make an article about suicide in fiction, which seems as though it would be a great topic to explore. Matt Deres (talk) 01:34, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete Wikipedia is not a directory. Would not object to suicide in fiction article but listing every single one is just inviting a coatrack of original research for a list of inappropriate scope.Shooterwalker (talk) 03:08, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep per DGG. Previous discussions over "list of fictional X" have generally resulted in a wholesale paring of NN entries, an establishment of clear criteria, improved referencing, and thus improved (and kept) articles. I'm afraid many of the delete !votes are ignoring the fact that AfD is not for cleanup: if it can be fixed, it should not be deleted, even if no one cares to lift a finger during the AfD process. Jclemens (talk) 06:05, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Delete per WP:NOTDIR. This list is too broad in scope.  Movementarian (Talk) 08:09, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:SALAT and WP:NOTDIR. This can be dealt with by a category if required, though I doubt that. It is also not a notable concept, however the discussion (not list) about suicides in fiction might be interesting, but that would be a different article and wouldn't require a list of this sort. Verbal chat  08:13, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.