Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of the victims of the Albanian communist regime


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   Nomination withdrawn. Under the circumstances, I don't see a reason to check whether I should be changing my own !vote. Non-admin closing. --  Blanchardb - Me•MyEars•MyMouth - timed 03:58, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

List of the victims of the Albanian communist regime

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Declined PROD without explanation. Topic seems like a major POV coatrack -- included in the list of "victims" are people who were given the death penalty and who died in prison. None of this is referenced. This seems fundamentally unencyclopedic. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ bomb  17:23, 4 May 2010 (UTC) I am withdrawing my nomination per my comments below and the full discussion. I reserve the right to re-nominate in the future should the article not get to a better place, but it seems to me that there are some good ideas (re-titling, reworking scope of article, etc.) below and some willingness to put them into place. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ bomb  14:30, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete. The only reference is an editorial that denounces one of the events that brought people onto this list. --  Blanchardb - Me•MyEars•MyMouth - timed 19:13, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albania-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete unless sources are found. Keep, since there are improvements being made on the article.  I think that whatever POV concerns come up are solved by a change of title.  Even without trying to translate the source material into English on Google translate, it's clear that it's not the source of the names on the list.  Of the 77 people listed, I'm sure that many of them were prominent in Albania, but we aren't told anything about them.  Mandsford (talk) 20:09, 4 May 2010
 * Help explain me what i need to improve? --Vinie007 12:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Response OK, you are going in the correct direction. Number one, locate more citations for the names (internet?  encyclopedia? magazine? etc.), whether written in English or in Shqip (Albanian).   Number two, identify and explain who these people were (politician?  dissident? etc) and what year they died (1946? 1986? etc).  The proper English wording is something I can help with.  Mandsford (talk) 13:31, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment from Nom I think an article on Suppressive Actions by the Albanian Communist Regime (or similar) is appropriate. A "List" of "victims" has the double problem of being both less useful and more prone to NPOV violations. The new section being added ("The Massacre of 1958") is not appropriate for inclusion in a list, naturally. Re-title and fundamentally rework and this is a good article. A list of victims leaves open the question of what makes someone a victim of the regime, which is a very serious question. Additionally, this list can never be complete -- that is almost literally impossible. Lists are usually of very easily, obviously determined things. Does that make sense? Why not re-work this as an article on Albanian Communist Regime Repression and explore the actual history of the event(s) rather than just listing names? That would be far more interesting and less problematic. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ  bomb  18:08, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Please be serieus, a dead penalty because you are a enemy of state is a victim i think! --Albanian222 (talk) 08:20, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. It is a stub and will be improved, but already we have plenty of references. As the article will be under the Albania TF, we will bring plenty of additional references to keep the article. Can it be renamed? Yes, possibly, but this is not an AfD. There were 10k estimated victims in Albania, be it for Propaganda, be it for tresspassing the borders of Albania. And then we have the killings of the intellectuals without any trial or the purges of communist politicians, or the purges of dissidents. However this is not an article to be deleted but a good start to represent the Repression of the Communist regime. Mind you, in this list will be included a list of killed catholic priests which are being considered for sainthood from the Vatican, so deletion is at least controversial. I agree though that we have to improve the article with more books and less newspaper articles. --SulmuesLet's talk 11:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment There were "10k estimated victims"? So you're saying this list will be incomplete until you list and cite 10,000 people? I actually had no idea the number was that large when I nominated this, and that it is apparently that large makes me all the more certain this list can't possibly work. We don't have articles with names like "List of Victims of Stalin's Purges" for good reason. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ  bomb  14:30, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Which is kind of surprising, in that we have Category:Great Purge victims with 170 entries. Needless to say, there would have to be some guidelines as to who would be included on any such list.  Generally, these are limited to notable persons who already have their own article.  Although "it's potentially endless" is a common rhetorical argument (I've used it myself), nobody actually expects that any list will include any and every person who ever fit the description.  We have plenty of groupings, like List of people from Kentucky, that have a clear statement of purpose and boundaries.  My only problem with this list is that it needs some type of boundary. Mandsford (talk) 16:35, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair point. If we use notability as a starting point, though, as far as I can tell it excludes everybody on the list. What non-problematic alternatives exist? I'm very sincerely not on a mission to get this topic deleted, I just haven't seen any solid ideas for how this list is workable. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ  bomb  16:59, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a list of people without a proces or a fake proces. In that time not everyone was executed for propaganda proposes or enemy of state!--Albanian222 (talk) 15:29, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it is a list of "victims." This is the problem. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ  bomb  16:26, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok let's change the title than! --Albanian222 (talk) 19:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, a change of title is the first step and an easy one, and that there should be some limitations (dissidents, politicians, cabinet ministers). The English-language Wikipedia has relatively few articles about the history of nations like Albania, so I'm for encouraging any development along that line, and for assisting in such things as choosing the appropriate words (suffice to say that Vinie007's understanding of the English language is  better than my understanding of the Albanian language).  The overwhelming majority of our contributors are from the U.S.A., the U.K., Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc., so Wikipedia has developed a large body of work on their histories, as well as for places in Africa and Asia where English is an official language.   Since many of our contributors have a working understanding of Spanish, French, German, etc., we're a better source than most reference services for Latin American and Western European history.  In any event, gather the information.  Folks like I will help bring it up to code.  Mandsford (talk) 12:49, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Given that there seems to be significant good faith willingness to work on this article and bring it to a place where it'll be less problematic and certainly very useful (per Mandsford's thinking above), I'm going to withdraw my nomination. I'll leave a message for BlanchardB above to see if he's willing to reconsider his own delete vote, at least for the time being and, if so, we can see about closing this AfD early. I'm not promising that I won't re-nominate should the article not change along the lines of what Mandsford's talking about -- there needs to be a very specific set of boundaries for inclusion in this list. Heck, I still think this needs to be an actual article and not a "list," per se -- I don't see as much use for a list of names as I do for an encyclopedic exploration of the event(s) -- but a list with proper boundaries, as above, seems fine to me. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ  bomb  14:24, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.