Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lists of Celtic clans


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. This might be controversial but there are some editors who object to a redirect that is proposed here on solid grounds. So, I'm closing this as a Delete. If an editor believes there should be a Redirect from this page title, you can create it and if there are objections to it, then the discussion can be brought to RFD. But a Redirect won't come out of this closure. Liz Read! Talk! 03:51, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Lists of Celtic clans

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

WP:OR WP:CROSSCAT of language family (Celtic languages) and geography (Category:Irish clans is a child of Category:Culture of Ireland; Category:Scottish clans is a child of Category:Social history of Scotland). The Celtic language family is WP:NONDEFINING for these clans, they could and often did have English or Scots as their native language. There is a strong consensus building on a long series of precedents to not mix up language families and countries/states, see the landmark decision Articles for deletion/List of Turkic dynasties and countries for an anthology. Besides, the "Celtic women" rename & purge of 27 June 2023 already confirmed people after 500 CE are no longer called "Celts/Celtic". To speak of Lists of clans of Celtic peoples, who disappeared from history after 500 CE, in reference to clans who did not appear until the High Middle Ages (after 1000 CE), is simply WP:OR. See also Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 22. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:39, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people, Language,  and Geography. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:39, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete, neither Scottish nor Irish clans are Celtic clans per se, due to a lot of immigration and assimilation in the course of history. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to List of ancient Celtic peoples and tribes, this contains a comprehensive list of all. If someone wants to read about Celtic tribes, and clans it is the best redirect, and it is based around the ancient Celtic peoples. Des Vallee (talk) 20:55, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Clans and tribes are two different things. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * delete per above. I don't see the redirect as most people would not see the things as synonymous. Mangoe (talk) 04:29, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps add both lists to Celts, and redirect Celtic clans to Celts. Pam D  07:52, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * That doesn't solve the issues. Groups of families in Ireland and Scotland speaking a mixture of Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, Scots and English from the High Middle Ages have very little to do with a purely language-based language family grouping across Europe and Asia Minor which disappeared in Late Antiquity. We just shouldn't lump "Celts" and "clans" together. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:33, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirects only need to be useful in description as an example Accomodate is just a mispelling but the redirect is still useful. As "clan" is synonymous with "tribe," such a redirect would be useful. The term "Celtic tribes" has been used to describe the societal system of ancient celts. As an example.


 * ''From Hillforts to Oppida in ‘Celtic’ Iberia, by Martin Almagro-Gorbea, Proceedings of the British Academy


 * The spread of the hillfort phenomenon represents a growing instability. Moreover, demographic growth and control of summer pastures is reflected in the increased use of transhumance to avoid the winter aridity of the Meseta plains and the harsh winters in the mountains (Almagro- Gorbea 1987a, 42; 1987b). This process favoured a hierarchical social organization, evidence for which is provided by grave goods of Celtic warrior clans (Almagro-Gorbea1993,148). It was this, together with an abundance of iron in these regions (Maluquer 1987), which helped to underpin the vigorous expansion of the Celtiberian Culture.


 * "Clan" is also mentioned in relation to the Celts in: Celtic chiefdom, Celtic state and Decentralized Complexity: The Case of Bronze Age Northern Europe. Des Vallee (talk) 17:22, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I believe you are mistaken. Clans and tribes are two different things. wikt:clan doesn't mention "tribe", while wikt:tribe states that a tribe is An ethnic group larger than a band or clan (and which may contain clans) but smaller than a nation (and which in turn may be contained within a nation).. Merriam-Webster confirms at clan and tribe that tribes are divided into clans, and several clans can make up a tribe. "clan" is more synonymous with "family", "kin", or "house". Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:10, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting to consider the Redirect option. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:57, 29 July 2023 (UTC) Relisting comment: There are several redirects suggested here as well as editors saying redirects are unnecessary so I'm hoping for some more feedback. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:28, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect Celtic clans & Lists of Celtic clansto List of ancient Celtic peoples and tribes.  Clan is often used loosely as a synonym for tribe or a subdivision thereof so it's better to have a redirect than a redlink.  Eluchil404 (talk) 01:38, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Clans and tribes are two different things. The ancient Celts disappear from our written sources around 500 CE, while Irish and Scottish clans do not appear until after 1000 CE. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:02, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Update Related page Lists of Celts has been deleted, see Articles for deletion/Lists of Celts. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:48, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect per . List of ancient Celtic peoples and tribes is the right place for this. 's objection that Clans and tribes are two different things is irrelevant unless they are suggesting that clans are also not people. PS: The claim that Irish clans didn't exist until 500 CE is either equally invalid or relies on a picky and stilted definition of 'clans' (such linguistic jiu jitsu is, I believe, exactly why the aforementioned list says 'people'). Cheers, Last1in (talk) 18:36, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Peoples, plural of the noun people (synonymous with "tribe(s)"). I'm not denying that clans are made up of more than one person (plural: people or persons; synonymous with "individual(s)"), but that is a different noun with a different grammar. I believe you are confusing the two nouns. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:32, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That makes even less sense. You have a definition of peoples that would not include clans? Whilst I'm certain you said it IGF, that is literally the worst argument for a delete that I've ever heard. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 20:04, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Last1in Ok let me try to explain to you what I also said above. In short: a "people" can include multiple "clans", and "peoples" is synonymous with "tribes".
 * But clans and tribes are two different things. wikt:clan doesn't mention "tribe", while wikt:tribe states that a tribe is An ethnic group larger than a band or clan (and which may contain clans) but smaller than a nation (and which in turn may be contained within a nation). Merriam-Webster confirms at clan and tribe that tribes are divided into clans, and several clans can make up a tribe. "clan" is more synonymous with "family", "kin", or "house".
 * In other words, a "people" or "tribe" can include multiple "clans", but just 1 "clan" does not make up an entire "tribe" or "people".
 * Perhaps an analogy to what the dictionaries are saying works best:
 * A person / human being is like a tree.
 * A "clan" or "family" is like a group of trees of the same species which have spawned from each other's seeds.
 * A "people" or "tribe" is like a forest with several groups of trees of the same species, and a lot of cross-breeding between those groups of trees. They are all somewhat related as a species ("a people/tribe") and continue to interbreed, but you can still see differences between the groups ("clans/families").
 * I hope this helps. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:55, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * To recap, a group of related trees is not a forest, since only groups of groups of trees qualify. 'People' means a group of individuals, whilst 'peoples' are groups of groups of individuals. Thus it is imperative that we completely scrap this topic name instead of redirecting because, when a person searches for tree-groups, getting a list of forests will completely baffle them. Readers should definitely not be allowed to see the trees for the forests. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 17:07, 11 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.