Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ljubljana derby


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Seraphimblade Talk to me 09:09, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Ljubljana derby

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Contested PROD on the grounds that playing on average once every two years did constitute a rivalry. Unfortunately, I still see nothing in this article to suggest that there has been any significant coverage of the rivalry itself in sources. Essentially this is a fully unreferenced article conatining little in the way of sourced prose. As the sourced prose is unreffed, it is essentially OR, the rest of the article is essentially a contravention of WP:NOT. The article then gets into the realm of WP:SYNTH towards the end as firstly, new clubs were formed in 2005 and editors have made the POV presumption that this is an automatic continuation of this rivalry and secondly there is a confusing OR attempt to establish other minor rivalries within the city that doesn't really make a great deal of sense. Clearly there are two teams here who have played each other on a number of occasions, but that in itself does not indicate a rivalry as per WP:NSEASONS let alone WP:GNG as there is no indication of discussion of the rivalry in any detail in any significant source. Fenix down (talk) 08:30, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Fenix down (talk) 08:35, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete due to: unreferenced, so currently clearly fails WP:V and may be WP:OR. Ping me if this changes. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep Thirtyfive matches in 60 years is a match on less than two years, I really see no reason, why that would be any problem. The coverage of the derby was big, for Slovenia of course. It had much more space in newspapers than others matches and it was allways refered to as the Ljubljana derby. The matches also broke some records of the Ljubljana' stadia at the time. It's not original research, it is just facts put together. And it is just normal that the derby article uses statistics, they all do, then you should also delete El clasico article. The last part is also not personal point of view, but it is the view of Ljubljana football public and fans of both clubs, as it is clearly stated. If you wish, the last post 2005 part can be removed, but the first part certainly not. It was a classic slovenian derby, right behind Eternal derby Olimpija - Maribor. It is still metioned in interwievs and even in dictionary of slovenian languege. What sort of other indication would you need, I cannot recreate the derby atmosphere from the fifties? Linhart (talk) 09:18, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - Some form of reference is required. At the moment it is wholly unreferenced and therefore is OR by definition until sources are added. I am not doubting that this is a derby or that the fans of the two clubs may dislike each other or whatever, what I am saying is that I can't see anything that indicates that the rivalry itself (and not just match reports confirming the two teams played each other) has received anywhere near the level of coverage required by WP:NSEASONS or WP:GNG. Not every "rivalry" needs its own article (and personally I would suggest a record of around one match every other year indicates that there was not really the frequency of games to warrant a specific article). Have a look at this article. Although not the best article, it contains a number of sources that discuss the rivalry between the two clubs in depth, not just as part of routine match report coverage, these are the sort of sources that this article needs. The matches may have been termed "The Ljubljana Derby" but if sources cannot be shown to have discussed the rivalry in depth then it does not warrant its own article. Fenix down (talk) 09:26, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment OK, I understand that. But there is some backgorund explained and the in-depth rivalry is no less discused or sourced than for many othar Balkans derbies that have articles. The main problem is, that it was on the peak in the fifties (and then early nineties) and that there are no internet sources from back then. There were however old articles in newspapers, when a reporter visited some training camp in Ajdovščina and intervieved players of both teams before the match. Then there were articles in style: "Much debate was going on in Ljubljana, whether who will will win the next Ljubljana derby. Most of them tipped on Olimpija or on the draw, while the home fans...", including managers views etc. So I should find the newspapers article hadlines from that time or how? There was an interwiev with Odred/Olimpija player Berginc, where it said: "Slišal sem za povojne tekme med Odredom in Železničarjem, na katerih se je menda zbralo tudi po 15.000 gledalcev. Toliko ne, kakih 10.000 pa res. Da, veliko rivalstvo je bilo to. Oba ljubljanska kluba sta igrala v drugi jugoslovanski ligi." (I herad for postwqar derbies between Odred and Železničar, on which there was appearently also up to 15.00 spectators? So much not, but 10.000 there was. Yes, a great rivalry was that, both clubs played in Yugoslav Second League), but the former Olimpija webpage along with the link for the interview is dead now. Linhart (talk) 10:05, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - The short answer - yes, you should find the newspaper articles (or any other source) that discussed the derby. Although ones that you mention above thatdiscuss who will win or predict results seem to me to be more WP:ROUTINE journalism about a football match rather than discussions about the histroy and nature of the rivalry. You could try finding a copy of the interview on the Wayback Machine Internet archive, but to be honest an interview with a player playing for one of the two clubs is going to be difficult to use as a reilable source as it is hard to call him objective. If there is genuinely a case for a separate article on the subject then there should be similar sources to this which actually talk about the rivalry itself and are written by people unconnected with either club. Fenix down (talk) 14:28, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Well, it wasn't just routine work, as this were the only matches thex did that for. The history of the derby was mostly discused statistical, that's true, but again those statistics weren't there for other matches. The nature of derby was mentioned here and there, bourgeoisie vs workers as stated in the article, but the whole article about that...I don't know, slovenian sociology about sport is (and especially was) not that well developed. Even if you chech the other (probably bigger) Eternal derby of Slovenian football (1962–2004) there are mostly statistics and match reports as sources, i see no in-depth derby nature articles. However, I will try to find additional articles about that. So far I added some basic sources... still more than many other articles about derbies from around here have. Linhart (talk) 17:14, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - It would be more useful if you could add the references so that there were inline citations, particularly as they are not in English, so it could be seen what elements of the article are supported. As it stands the non-web based references are of little use as there is no indication to what part of the article they refer and to what page/s in the source parts of the article are drawn from. I would still question the validity of an interview on a club website as a reliable source for the rivalry as well. I would have the same opinion about Eternal derby of Slovenian football (1962–2004) and many other derbies which are just stat dumps, but in this discussion WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid argument. Fenix down (talk) 17:28, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete - no evidence this is a notable rivalry i.e. one that has received significant coverage in independent souces. Simply "playing lots of matches" isn't good enough. GiantSnowman 19:42, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Slovenia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:26, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:26, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.