Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lori St John


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. The article was improved while this discussion was going on, and all later !voters agrred to keep it. (non-admin closure) Kraxler (talk) 01:37, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Lori St John

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Blatantly non-notable subject per WP:GNG and WP:PROF. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 14:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:15, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Law-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:15, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:15, 4 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete Per nom. Poorly sourced vanity piece fails WP:GNG Theroadislong (talk) 15:45, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete Vanity article unsupported by sources.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:21, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Abstain - There is media coverage under her maiden name, Lori Urs. Her book being optioned by J. Miles Day, producer of the Carrie remake and the current series the Strain, is also notable.  I would probably vote weak keep if the media coverage was properly integrated into the article.Timtempleton (talk) 22:11, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * My search for "Lori Urs", (married name) did not produce much . User:Timtempleton, can you show us what you found?  Sources don't have to be on the page to support keeping the page.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:52, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Good timing - I just added some news from the NY Times. There's even a hostage standoff!  Here's the Google results page - links from CNN, Denver Post, etc.[] The Post reported that the marriage was likely so Ms. St. John could get access to the DNA evidence.  Interesting story - you never know what you're going to stumble upon on Wikipedia!Timtempleton (talk) 19:07, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Fellow Editors: To address the question of the notability of Lori Urs (now Lori St John) I will be discussing some of the editor’s comments in general so as to offer additional information of which I felt was too voluminous to include in the article. I have read both the Wp.Gng and Wp.Prof., as well as the entire section on notability. It is because Lori St John is notable that I have taken the time to include this article. If you have a comment or concern about something please just ask me and I can provide support for all the facts stated in the article (which I believe has already been done). Please avoid generalizations and be specific so that I may address your concerns. Thank you.
 * Speedy keep. http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/nejccc25&div=14&id=&page= BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 19:14, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Ms. St John was not just referenced in articles about wrongful convictions, it is because of Ms St John that the death row case of Joseph O’Dell became an international cause, reaching millions of people around the world. That is not my opinion, but a fact that is referenced in numerous secondary sources. I have included below for your reference sources about Lori Urs. Having read her book, she was given a tour of Italy similar to that of Fidel Castro (quoting a newspaper source) when the Italian Parliament personally invited her to meet the countries highest officials. Her work led her directly to Pope John Paul II who personally invited her to the Vatican for a private meeting to acknowledge her work in trying to save Joseph O’Dell, a death row inmate who was largely unknown prior to the appearance of Urs. I have referenced sources that independently support this.

Regarding WP-Prof, Ms St John was the founder and director of the Innocence Project for the Rutgers School of Law, where she worked for over 4 years teaching students under the constitutional law clinic. Her published law review article has been referenced in the article and was about the subject she is known to have expertise in. Known as an expert in her area, she was invited to convene the 50th Anniversary of the Declaration of Human Rights in Florence, Italy, representing our country amongst 1,000 people from around the world. Present at the meeting was former Attorney General Ramsey Clark (see a photograph on www.loristjohn.com under photos). In addition, the Colorado Bar Association offered her full CPE credits for her continued education requirements as a result of the research and contribution to the legal profession she made in her book, The Corruption of Innocence, a Journey for Justice. She also spoke, just his past year, to the Essex Country Public Defenders Office in Newark, NJ about her book and wrongful convictions, for CPE credits for the lawyers in attendance.

Most importantly, Ms St John squarely falls within the criteria for notable persons under WP-GNG. In the subject-specific guideline she can be notable under organizations, books, events or web content. In general however, she has received significant coverage of which is not a trivial mention. Pursuant to the guidelines she does not need to be the main topic of the material, however, in many sources she is. The sources are all reliable and published in many forms, from and in more than one language (including Italian). There are numerous secondary sources that support Ms St John’s notability. In addition, one of the guidelines states she is “presumed” to be included if there is significant coverage from reliable sources. There is significant coverage in the U.S but also in Italy as well. My research into Ms St John reveals there exists hundreds of articles in Italy from December 1996 on, where she is referenced or the topic of discussion.

“There is verifiable, objective evidence that the subject has received significant attention from independent sources to support a claim of notability.”

St John has used her book to help educate others in the area of wrongful convictions and has spoken at the Rutgers School of Law, the Essex County Public Defenders Office and many other places, including the ship The World, that travels around the world. Just recently she was invited to speak at the Florida Division of the International Association of Identification about her expertise in wrongful convictions and evidence. (this is an international organization of forensic scientists, crime scene investigators and analyst’s, and law enforcement).

If you require any further clarification I invite you to please contact me so I may assist you in learning more about Ms St John and why it is important to include this article in wikipedia.

Thank you for your time and dedication to this process.

Additional Sources: Mention of Lori Urs (now St John) in Secondary Sources

New England School of Law http://www.loristjohn.com/RDT-1.6.html?scp=1&sq=Joseph+O'Dell&st=nyt

http://www.loristjohn.com/RDT-1.3.html?scp=1&sq=Joseph+O'Dell&st=nyt, Urs referenced and acknowledged throughout the article as the reason one of 3, 000 death row cases became an international cause. See columns, 1, 3, and 4, noting: column 1: Days after the Supreme Court stayed O’Dell’s execution on Dec. 17, the New York Times reported “there can’t be many people left in Italy who never heard of O’Dell. The “nagging question” the story asked was “how this case was singled out for Italy’s’ national embrace. They need have looked no further than Urs, a driven woman who has dedicated her life to saving O’Dell’s. Column 2, O’Dell’s case was already known in Italy via the Internal... but but so too were the cases of more than 3,000 other Americans on death row across the country, and no one was demonstrating about any of them until Urs reached Farkas.” Column 3: After the story ran (front page story of the most widely circulated newspaper in Italy), Neri, a locally elected official representing the region of Umbria, called Farkas looking for Urs, and things took a political turn. Column 5- “ In January, Urs toured Italy to thank O’Dell supporter and drummed up more attention. Ferrarotti, the sociologist, appeared on a television show with Urs during the visit. He said Urs “captured the imagination of the Italian public at large. I was quite amazed myself. He said she was “very forceful, very attractive, obviously very dedicated and you know all of this put together somehow made an impact.” Leoluca Orlando, major of Palermo, made O’dell an honorary citizen.

Urs was invited by the Italian Parliament, who sponsored her trip, to tour the country of Italy. She began her tour in the President’s office, meeting with his aid, and then met with the President of the Senate, President of Constitutional Affairs and numerous high dignitaries throughout Italy, including doing a TV show with then Foreign Affairs Prime Minister Dini.

She was also invited twice to the Vatican, met the Secretary of State, who gave her a rosary from the Pope and was invited back to meet privately with Pope John Paul II, at the Vatican. She also received a phone call from Mother Teresa, in acknowledgement of her work, and invited her to stay with her in Calcutta. See The Corruption of Innocence, a Journey for Justice, pages 326, 338-9, 340, 441, 440-1, 417, 417, 427, 429,

World’s appeals can’t stay execution http://www.loristjohn.com/RDT-1.5.html?scp=1&sq=Joseph+O'Dell&st=nyt

Philadelphia Inquirer: http://www.loristjohn.com/TPI-1.1.html

About Urs... read how her mission led her to take extraordinary measures to obtain the evidence for posthumous DNA testing.

A Jersey woman’s fight for justice http://blog.nj.com/perspective/2013/10/when_injustice_proves_too_diff.html

Urs (now St John )and her story, purchased for the film adaptation by J. Miles Dale http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/10/fl-creative-production-idUSnBw105718a+100+BSW20130910

Lori Urs debates evidence with Commonwealth Attorney Humphreys in Virginia, http://www.loristjohn.com/RDT-1.4.html

New York Times; Front page Lori Urs’ website page was the first to be noted for its uniqueness, reaching people worldwide, where a petition was started to fee O’Dell. This same web site was the one picked up by 24 hours in Cyberspace (see wikki) for her notability in touching human lives around the world. see the wikki article about 24 hours in Cyberspace http://www.loristjohn.com/NYT-1.1.html

Washington Post see picture of Lori Urs with Sister Helen Prejean. She called a press conference and recruited the famous nun to join her cause to save Joseph O’Dell. http://www.loristjohn.com/NYT-1.1.html

International- Italy See http://www.loristjohn.com/ItalianMedia-5.1.html

Message to Lori Urs from Mother Teresa, who phoned her personally in August. http://www.loristjohn.com/Document-4.html

Lori Urs wrote an appendix to the U.S Supreme Court citing the factual errors in the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, in this brief summary she includes some of her legal research and investigation. http://www.loristjohn.com/Document-1.1.html

Book Reviews and other secondary sources

http://www.whomyouknow.com/2013/07/read-this-corruption-of-innocence.html#.VcJnls5cvyc

https://readersfavorite.com/book-review/the-corruption-of-innocence

http://www.lideamagazine.com/usa-book-expo-america-books-books-books-and-again-books-part-2/

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/books-corruption-innocence-joseph-odell-story

http://www.crimecasefiles.com/forum/life-on-death-row/47551-books-the-corruption-of-innocence-the-joseph-odell-story.html

See testimonials

http://www.loristjohn.com/index-bookreviews.html

Photographs of Lori Urs with Italy Parliament Members, and other High Dignitaries

Photographs with Lori Urs and Italian Parliament Members (and European Parliament member Leoluca Orlando (member of both parliaments).

http://www.loristjohn.com/index-3.html see also her book. Galaxygirl0505 (talk) 22:09, 5 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep Agree article was in sad shape, with much junk. Was this revamped, now this as per WP:HEYMANN. Numerous reliable sources in article as of August 6, 2015 -- 13, with in-depth profile and interview of St John. Further, her sustained activism led the case to becoming an international matter of foreign policy, with foreign parliaments asking US system for changes regarding death-row capital cases. That Mother Teresa, the Pope, the city of Palermo weighed in, because of her efforts, and that anti-death penalty activism is a continuing ongoing thing, with her book, plus later incidents with other death-row types (eg Nutter), she easily meets the WP:GNG and her article should not face lethal injection. :).--Tomwsulcer (talk) 15:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC) Two other reasons: subject made great strides to encourage use of accurate DNA testing in capital cases, plus if any of us innocent Wikipedians ever gets wrongfully convicted and we find ourselves on death row, Ms. St John might marry us.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 16:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - in current state, while still sub-standard, WP:GNG has clearly been met. We need a more well-rounded picture of this person, from background (family, birthplace, high school) to daily life (who was the father of the hostage daughter, for examample?) -- Orange Mike &#124;  Talk  23:46, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep. TNT is close to being a option but as it is improving let's go with GNG. The Record, 14 November 1999 had an article primarily about her, "PRISONER ADVOCATE FOUGHT HARD BATTLE" by DAVID VOREACOS. The Philadelphia Inquirer, 7 September 1997 has a profile on her, "PASSIONATE CRUSADE" by Jennifer Weiner (front page can be seen on St John's own website). There's lots in connection with the siege, such as "A siege over, a will unshaken" by Stephanie Ebbert in The Boston Globe, 5 August 1998. Her book also has a Kirkus review. duffbeerforme (talk) 11:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep The article appears to meet WP:RS requirements without a problem. And Adoil Descended (talk) 18:46, 11 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.